STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Toy Sales Fall

[AndyDursin]

Force Awakens hews too close to A New Hope, and everyone complains. Last Jedi takes some narrative risks...and everyone complains.

To be fair, though, there's a difference here. When you say "everyone complains" about THE FORCE AWAKENS -- most people still liked it despite the fact it was a rehash. This movie -- what seem to be a fair amount of people genuinely seem to dislike this film.

[Monterey Jack]

To be fair, though, there's a difference here. When you say "everyone complains" about THE FORCE AWAKENS -- most people still liked it despite the fact it was a rehash. This movie -- what seem to be a fair amount of people genuinely seem to dislike this film.

I didn't hear anyone complaining at my screening. Applause, laughs, gasps and cheers throughout. It certainly wasn't the kind of gradual deflation of enthusiasm that earmarked confused, first-day showings of The Phantom Menace or The Matrix Reloaded. I just think that everyone had their own "mind movie" version of where the plot was going to go, and since a lot of popular fan theories proved out to be false, people are annoyed. And to them, I say, well, that's your fault, isn't it?

Personally, I was very pleased with the film, aside from minor nitpicks. It's not an Empire clone, it looks great, is well-paced despite its length, gives Oscar Issac a lot more to do (good for him...he's a terrific actor, and great in the role of Poe Dameron), and is enthusiastic, pulpy fun. Even the "Porgs" that supposedly everyone was complaining about only appear in like, three or four scenes, and I found pretty damn adorable.

[AndyDursin]

Problem is that the audience reaction numbers are really not good and it's not just fanboys who don't like where the plot went.

Also I still cannot believe how you always complain about the running time on movies even when the length is justified, and yet here is a 2.5 hour STAR WARS movie thats being hammered for it's length even from people that like it...and yet you have no issue with it at all! Craziness.

[Monterey Jack]

Also I still cannot believe how you always complain about the running time on movies even when the length is justified, and yet here is a 2.5 hour STAR WARS movie thats being hammered for it's length even from people that like it...and yet you have no issue with it at all! Craziness.

I've seen three-hour movies that went by in a flash, and 80-minute movies that had me checking my watch by the half-hour mark. This one's length didn't bother me too much...and considering I saw it with a stuffy nose, that's saying something.

[AndyDursin]

I know it's just baffling. Lol. Guess I will have to see it for myself!

[Paul MacLean]

I had posted my impressions of the film here, but decided to move it over to the "Rate The Last Movie You Saw" thread.

http://www.andyfilm.com/mboard/viewtopi ... 089#p67089

[tjguitar85]

Is anyone buying the CD? The movie reuses the FORCE AWAKENS main title, and apparently there's next to no concert arrangements. Lots of short cues. Sadly.

I listened to it on Amazon Music. Apparently the whole album is available for free on YouTube. I liked it. Lots of themes from the original trilogy, lots of the new themes in Episode 7.

You didn't like Episode 7 so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't like this one.


I like Williams use of brass in Ep 7 and 8.

I also dug the film. There were some boring parts, but all the stuff with Luke, and the Rey / Kylo Ren stuff was great. Didn't really have a connection with the characters in the sub-plot.

[tjguitar85]

Problem is that the audience reaction numbers are really not good and it's not just fanboys who don't like where the plot went.

Where are you seeing bad numbers? it's 93% on Rotten Tomatoes. 8 out of 10 on IMDB.

People seemed really excited in my theater. Probably 4 or 5 scenes with applause.

[AndyDursin]

The audience score on RT is 57. And dropping continuoisly.

[Monterey Jack]

The audience score on RT is 57. And dropping continuoisly.

If Rotten Tomatoes existed in 1980, you'd see the EXACT same inital rejection of The Empire Strikes Back ("There's no ending! Darth Vader is Luke's DAD?! Bullcrap! It's nothing but an endless, downbeat retreat for the Rebellion!"). It was only later that fans came around to how great Empire is, basically after the Muppet Show of Return Of The Jedi.

[Paul MacLean]

If Rotten Tomatoes existed in 1980, you'd see the EXACT same inital rejection of The Empire Strikes Back ("There's no ending! Darth Vader is Luke's DAD?! Bullcrap! It's nothing but an endless, downbeat retreat for the Rebellion!"). It was only later that fans came around to how great Empire is, basically after the Muppet Show of Return Of The Jedi.

Everyone I knew loved Empire at the time. In fact there was quite of bit of backlash in the letters page of Starlog Magazine after David Gerrold gave it mixed (not bad, but just a mixed) review.

[AndyDursin]

Umm...yeah. What initial recation are you talking about? Everybody I grew up with loved EMPIRE even if some weren't in love with the cliffhanger ending. There was never much question about the quality of the film regardless.

[KevinEK]

A couple of things here.

First, regarding Empire Strikes Back: When it came out, it got mixed reviews. It did great box office, although not the tsunami of Star Wars. (And Lucas was nervous about this, because he'd just been burned by the poor showing of More American Graffiti). The LA Times gave the movie a mixed review, noting that it started with a great action sequence but was too long in the middle and ultimately didn't satisfy in the way the first movie had. The Times repeated this reaction when they reviewed the album release of John Williams' soundtrack. I saw the movie some time after it came out, having read the novelization first. I liked it a lot, but didn't have the awestruck reaction I'd had to Star Wars. Over time, I've grown to appreciate it as the better film - but as a kid, I remember being frustrated by the cliffhanger. Of course, when Jedi came out, I remember liking that a lot more in some ways, since it answered the cliffhanger questions - but I remember wincing at the bad dialogue even in 1983. And very quickly in the years after Jedi, its massive problems have only become clearer. To me, it's still one of the weakest movies in the entire series, if not the single weakest. Empire obviously holds up a LOT better, particularly from the perspective of knowing how the story ends. But when it came out, it wasn't the same. I don't remember Empire being rejected, or being thought of as badly made. I do remember Empire being criticized and not initially loved as much as the first film.

Second, regarding the new movie attempt: All the reactions I've been seeing have been unhappy - particularly one friend last night who directly told me that he thought the movie was a tremendous waste of time - poorly written and directed, and an ominous sign that people weren't paying attention to what Rian Johnson was doing. This is what I was concerned might happen all along, given that I suffered through his terrible and derivative movie "Looper" a few years ago. Johnson is a good episodic television director, as he's shown on "Breaking Bad", which theoretically should have served him well here. But he requires supervision by a strong writer/producer and a strong creative team. When he's on his own, as we saw with "Looper", the results aren't pretty. So it's sadly no surprise that there are major problems here. I wish they would have hired someone else, but the damage has been done.

I'll most likely see the movie on home video. I'm busy trying to deal with the awards consideration screeners right now, and this isn't that urgent to me. I grew up as a big fan of Star Wars - enough so that I was happy to pick up the Timothy Zahn books when they came out in the early 1990s. These new movies? Frankly, they're not that impressive. My friend last night admitted to me that in retrospect, he prefers the prequels to the new wave, because at least the prequels serviced the actual story. He also said that Lucas had the right idea to stop after he finished Episode III and say that the story now had a beginning, middle and an ending. The poor quality of the latest movie's script indicated to him that it would have been better to leave Star Wars alone.

[AndyDursin]

Second, regarding the new movie attempt: All the reactions I've been seeing have been unhappy - particularly one friend last night who directly told me that he thought the movie was a tremendous waste of time - poorly written and directed, and an ominous sign that people weren't paying attention to what Rian Johnson was doing.

It's remarkable: I heard from a friend of my parents on Facebook. He was disappointed. I went to the local toy shop and saw my friend the manager. He hadnt seen it, but heard from 3 friends of his -- all of them disliked it. That's in addition to a couple of cousins -- who didn't care for it. I've actually yet to run into anyone in my social circle who HASN'T been disappointed by it.

Anyway I will check it out Tuesday and try to clear my head ahead of time!

[AndyDursin]

I listened to it on Amazon Music. Apparently the whole album is available for free on YouTube. I liked it. Lots of themes from the original trilogy, lots of the new themes in Episode 7.

You didn't like Episode 7 so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't like this one.

There's not one new piece of music in this score that's worth writing about. Not one. At least not for me. As for the "Episode 7 themes" what are you referring to exactly? He wrote one "developed" theme with Rey and that was pretty much it. He dumped the Empire theme for a, what, four-note "First Order" motif? It's not even a theme, just a descending line! That's pretty much all the "new material" he's written -- short, repetitive fanfares and fragments instead of fully articulated thematic material -- while weaving in and out of predictable reprisals of old themes. One of the hallmarks of Williams' career has been crafting all new thematic material for sequels -- I've frankly never once heard him re-use so many old themes as he does in this score. The only time the music really makes an impression is when he does go back to the well, but that's not something he's ever done before or needed to do. I also, at least from a musical standpoint, don't feel they're well integrated into the score. They stand out, like "oh it's Yoda's Theme again" -- they're brought in straight from the prior scores and don't seem to be "interpolated" so much into what you are seeing. Maybe it's just how the album plays but it just didnt work for me.

I love John Williams but find both of these scores exhausting, I just don't find them interesting musically. They're in keeping with how most modern scores function -- little thematic depth, little musical variety. Lots of "mickey mousing" action cues punctuating nearly every scene. It's better crafted than something you'll hear from Hans Zimmer, yes, but in terms of John Williams' abilities, these scores don't even compare to the prequel scores in any real capacity from a musical standpoint.

Either way, it's the first time I've heard a John Williams score that sounded like it was written by someone imitating him. I also wonder how music conducting he even did, given Bill Ross' credit on the album. Can't blame him either after what he went through on the last one.