STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Toy Sales Fall

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Paul MacLean
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Opens $12 Million Under TFA

#46 Post by Paul MacLean »

KevinEK wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:31 am A couple of things here.

First, regarding Empire Strikes Back: When it came out, it got mixed reviews. It did great box office, although not the tsunami of Star Wars.
I was referring to audience reaction though, rather than the critics' responses. The Empire Strikes Back was not the box office juggernaut which Star Wars was (how many movies have been?), but Empire ran for nearly the entire summer at my local cinema -- which was pretty impressive, and unusual. I went to see Empire seven times the summer it was released, and audience turnout was very healthy each time I attended.

KevinEK wrote: Of course, when Jedi came out, I remember liking that a lot more in some ways, since it answered the cliffhanger questions - but I remember wincing at the bad dialogue even in 1983. And very quickly in the years after Jedi, its massive problems have only become clearer. To me, it's still one of the weakest movies in the entire series, if not the single weakest.
Return of the Jedi was not perfect, but you really think Attack of the Clones and The Force Awakens are superior films?

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Opens $12 Million Under TFA

#47 Post by KevinEK »

The audience reaction I saw to Empire at the time in 1980 was positive, but nothing at the level of Star Wars. The kids I knew liked it, but they were a bit thrown by it at the same time. It's not that the movie was unpopular - it's that when it came out, many people weren't jumping up and down raving about it. And that effect was intentional by Lucas - he said he wanted to give the audience the big kaboom early in the movie so he could get into the more interesting stuff for him as it went on - and then end it with a cliffhanger that required you to come back in 3 years. The other audience "what the heck" reaction was to the "Episode V" insertion into the opening roll-up. This doesn't mean the movie didn't do great box office throughout the summer of 1980 and with re-releases the following two summers. (I went to see Empire again in a theater in 1982 as part of a double feature with Wrath of Khan) I mean, it was a Star Wars movie - it wasn't going to go the way of More American Graffiti.

Regarding Jedi, I do find it to be weaker than the prequels. Here's why: The script is frankly terrible in Jedi, with nearly every scene overloaded with the typical cliché statements, alongside some truly awful lines. The opening sequence at Jabba's Palace drags on maybe 10 minutes too long. Boba Fett is thrown away in moments. The big mission of the movie turns out to be the same one as the first Star Wars, rather than anything new. And the final good/evil conflict in the Emperor's quarters is cringeworthy. There are still great moments in it, including plenty of the battle moments on Endor, even with the teddy bears running around. But Jedi is too over the top all the way through, and simultaneously empty of the interesting material we had seen in the first two movies. To me, the film answers the various questions from Empire, but doesn't even try to tell an interesting story while it does so.

With the prequels, there are plenty of issues - too much CGI, too much juvenile humor in Phantom Menace, too many wooden performances and stilted dialogue throughout all three films. But there are interesting story arcs in each of the three films - especially in the third film, which could have just been a similar situation as Jedi. They're not perfect films at all, but I like the concepts in them, and there's more going on than meets the eye with them. For Jedi, what you see is pretty much what you get.

I wasn't including the JJ Abrams attempt from 2 years ago or the Rogue One addendum in my calculus. Rogue One was a sodden mess to me when I saw it on Blu-ray a few months ago. There just didn't seem to be a point to the movie even existing. The JJ Abrams movie was okay, but it really just felt derivative of the original trilogy, and I think I noted that at the time - as well as the obvious cutting around Carrie Fisher's performance. So if I were to count those new movies in with the actual series, I'd have to put Rogue One at the bottom of the list, and probably put the JJ Abrams movie tied for second-to-last with Jedi.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Opens $12 Million Under TFA

#48 Post by BobaMike »

Wow, Kevin...the Emperor's throne room scenes were cringeworthy? I've never heard anyone complain about that part of Jedi before! I love those scenes.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Opens $12 Million Under TFA

#49 Post by KevinEK »

"Sister....So you have a twin sister!" I remember ducking when I saw that one in the theater.
"If you will not turn, then you will meet your destiny!" I mean, this is really bad dialogue.
The final moment where Luke loses it is interesting, mainly for the scoring (which sours the main theme of the series) and for the acknowledgment that there's a real possibility of Luke going the wrong way - something that all the characters have been scared about since the first film. But most of what we see in the scenes in the Emperor's room are just hollow confrontation notes.

I was happier with the no-dialogue fight to the death with Darth Maul in Phantom Menace. No need for constant taunting and quipping. Those guys were just trying to saber each other, no holds barred.

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Paul MacLean
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Opens $12 Million Under TFA

#50 Post by Paul MacLean »

KevinEK wrote:Regarding Jedi, I do find it to be weaker than the prequels. Here's why: The script is frankly terrible in Jedi, with nearly every scene overloaded with the typical cliché statements, alongside some truly awful lines.
It's not a perfect film, but I find such clichés and stilted dialog to be far-more rampant in Attack of the Clones. I don't think there is anything in Return of the Jedi to rival the cornball "romantic" scenes between Anakin and Padme. The romantic interactions between Han and Leia in ROTJ ring far-more true. Moreover, I don't find any of ROTJ's narrative flaws as awkward as the way Boba Fett is set-up -- like he's going to become a "supervillain" and play a bigger role in later films than he actually does.

Some of the dialog and situations are "clichés", but in many ways, Star Wars is a celebration of clichés. That's kind of the idea. SW draws on tried and true adventure story tropes, ranging from Dumas, Wagner (that Luke and Leia are siblings is no shock to someone familiar with the Ring Cycle), Sir Walter Scott, Kurosawa, Flash Gordon, Hollywood westerns, etc. It's hard to avoid "cliché" situations and dialog in an homage to classic archetypes.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Opens $12 Million Under TFA

#51 Post by Monterey Jack »

KevinEK wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:54 pmI was happier with the no-dialogue fight to the death with Darth Maul in Phantom Menace. No need for constant taunting and quipping. Those guys were just trying to saber each other, no holds barred.
One of the biggest mistakes of the Prequels was how much of a non-entity Darth Maul was, like Lucas decided he "looked cool" and that was enough to define a character. When you think of Darth Vader, his mechanical visage is indeed memorable, but it was James Earl Jones' echoy threats and taunts that made him into a villain you loved to hate. Maul has ONE LINE in all of The Phatom Menace, so he almost seems like an agile stand-in for an actual actor who was never cast. And Ray Park is a capable enough actor in other roles, so it's disappointing he never got a chance to make Maul into an actual character instead of a blunt instrument carrying out assassination at Senator Palpatine's behest.

Plus, killing him off at the end of the movie was such a waste. Had that moment been held off until Revenge Of The Sith, it would have held so much more dramatic satisfaction. As much as I love Christopher Lee, his Count Dooku seemed like an afterthought, like Lucas realized the folly of killing off Maul so quickly so he had to whip up a replacement post-haste for the remaining Prequels. Lee had so little to do in Attack Of The Clones that his execution by Anakin in Sith seemed perfunctory.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Opens $12 Million Under TFA

#52 Post by AndyDursin »

One of the biggest mistakes of the Prequels was how much of a non-entity Darth Maul was, like Lucas decided he "looked cool" and that was enough to define a character.
Boba Fett -- same exact thing in the original trilogy. Growing up everybody loved the character and played with the action figure, despite the fact he's only in it for fleeting minutes and meets an inglorious end right at the start of JEDI.

Speaking of that, my gripe with RETURN OF THE JEDI was always its direction. Richard Marquand brought no energy at all to that film, as evidenced by how bored Harrison Ford looked. Overall I think the movie is "fine" albeit inferior to STAR WARS and EMPIRE, and there are pockets of it that are really, really dull. Especially after the opening half-hour in Tatooine, the movie just seems to drag until it picks up at the climax.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Opens $12 Million Under TFA

#53 Post by mkaroly »

AndyDursin wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:45 am
One of the biggest mistakes of the Prequels was how much of a non-entity Darth Maul was, like Lucas decided he "looked cool" and that was enough to define a character.
Boba Fett -- same exact thing in the original trilogy. Growing up everybody loved the character and played with the action figure, despite the fact he's only in it for fleeting minutes and meets an inglorious end right at the start of JEDI.

Speaking of that, my gripe with RETURN OF THE JEDI was always its direction. Richard Marquand brought no energy at all to that film, as evidenced by how bored Harrison Ford looked. Overall I think the movie is "fine" albeit inferior to STAR WARS and EMPIRE, and there are pockets of it that are really, really dull. Especially after the opening half-hour in Tatooine, the movie just seems to drag until it picks up at the climax.
Agreed. Actually, my favorite part of JEDI was the climactic battle between Vader, Luke, and the Emperor (before Lucas added the overstated "NOOOO!" for the Blu-Ray release). Williams' scoring at that point was his best moment in the score (with the male chorus, etc.). Very operatic. Otherwise, the Ewoks were disgraceful and the rest of the film is just dull.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Official Thread

#54 Post by Eric Paddon »

I'm just going to say that for me the innocence of Star Wars, when it was new was broken by Empire. I seriously doubt many people who first saw SW and experienced the phenom before there was an Empire would have predicted that that the object of romance is going to ultimately be Han-Leia. That certainly never rang authentic to me and seemed like a convenient plot device of "Well, while Luke is training this is what we have to do with Han and Leia......" The whole character of Yoda I disliked from the outset because even at age 11, right away I was going, "Sheesh, a Muppet with Grover's voice recycled". So if we want to look at the shortcomings of ROTJ and subsequent films, I think there's no escaping that the seeds for destruction first get planted in ESB, at least from my standpoint.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Official Thread

#55 Post by Paul MacLean »

Eric Paddon wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:13 pmI seriously doubt many people who first saw SW and experienced the phenom before there was an Empire would have predicted that that the object of romance is going to ultimately be Han-Leia. That certainly never rang authentic to me and seemed like a convenient plot device of "Well, while Luke is training this is what we have to do with Han and Leia......" The whole character of Yoda I disliked from the outset because even at age 11, right away I was going, "Sheesh, a Muppet with Grover's voice recycled".
I actually thought Leia winding-up with Han made for a unique twist. Star Wars was clearly steering the audience to expect the young hero would get-together with the princess, so I thought it effectively defied expectations. (The only problem is the stupid movie poster gave it away before anyone saw the film!)

As far as Yoda, Empire was made nearly forty years ago, and at the time, Yoda was a huge advancement in the art of puppetry (paving the way for The Dark Crystal and Labyrinth a few years later). He may have had "Grover's voice", but is that really any different from Indiana Jones having Han Solo's voice (and face)?
Last edited by Paul MacLean on Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Official Thread

#56 Post by mkaroly »

EMPIRE for me will always be the strongest of the films - outstanding achievement on every level. It is also my favorite score of the lot.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Official Thread

#57 Post by AndyDursin »

Can someone tell me before I see this if LAST JEDI continues with Disney's tradition of inflating THE FORCE to Marvel-levels of super-hero powers?

I rewatched the end of ROGUE ONE last night and it bothers the crap out of me that Darth Vader can now mow down dozens of soldiers with his Force super-powers at the end of that...to the point where it doesn't even fit with the original trilogy. If he's THAT powerful, why does he need soldiers to run around with a gun? If the Force is so strong, why does anyone need a lightsaber in this universe?

Just want to know to be prepared in advance for this, because I know it's coming (amIrite??)

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Official Thread

#58 Post by KevinEK »

I've read that the original plan for the Star Wars sequels was different from what went down in the end.
Gary Kurtz says that the idea he and Lucas discussed when they got into doing Empire (and thought they would be doing the third one together too) was that you would have the darker second chapter and then the redemptive third chapter, although not with Darth Vader being redeemed. At that time, the idea was still that Vader would be the ultimate villain who gets defeated in the end of the trilogy. It was going to be a series of adventures and challenges that the Rebels don't always win (hence the Empire winning big in the second movie), but ultimately seeing good triumph over evil with Luke vanquishing Vader. The coda of the trilogy, according to Kurtz, would have been that the Rebels have won and Leia is now the ruler of her people - but that she doesn't wind up with either Han or Luke. Kurtz described this ending as more bittersweet (and frankly, more like American Graffiti) where all three realize that this moment has passed and they go their separate ways. This would have placed the entire Star Wars story squarely into the mythos Lucas was working on through the 1970s - that of the teenager growing up and becoming a man. It infuses THX-1138, AG and the first Star Wars in a big way. And I think this would have been a stronger story arc to play, all things considered.

But somewhere in the writing of Empire, Lucas changed course and went with a new notion that Vader was a redeemable character gone bad, and that the true villain was the Emperor. Kurtz hated that idea, because it diminished the power of Vader. And then you have the inevitable Han/Leia romance that comes up in Empire, which I didn't mind, but which changed the situation from a triangle to one that firmly had Han and Leia in one area and Luke and the Force in another. Kurtz found the whole setup of Jedi to be disappointing, given what they'd set up with the first film and with the potential coming out of the second one - even with the Vader as Dad revelation.

On the other hand, Kurtz was also in a position where he was understandably miffed about being removed from the movies by Lucas when things went haywire on Empire. From what I can see, the last straw after watching the movie go wildly overbudget and over schedule was that Lucas got fined by the DGA and the WGA over crediting that could have been worked out by Kurtz months earlier. One does wonder what might have happened had Kurtz managed Empire with a firmer hand, and had Lucas kept him on the ride for Jedi. But we'll never know now, and at this point the movies and characters have been handed off to Kathleen Kennedy and her group. My thinking is that I'm happy we have the original movies and the prequels on DVD and Blu, even with the laserdisc versions of the original cuts. No matter what, we'll always have that.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Official Thread

#59 Post by Monterey Jack »

AndyDursin wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:08 pm Can someone tell me before I see this if LAST JEDI continues with Disney's tradition of inflating THE FORCE to Marvel-levels of super-hero powers?
There's a moment involving a familiar character that has a lot of fanboys doing a surly, Han Solo-esque "That's not how the Force WORKS!", but I'll keep it vague.

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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI - Official Thread

#60 Post by Paul MacLean »

Monterey Jack wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:11 pm
AndyDursin wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:08 pm Can someone tell me before I see this if LAST JEDI continues with Disney's tradition of inflating THE FORCE to Marvel-levels of super-hero powers?
There's a moment involving a familiar character that has a lot of fanboys doing a surly, Han Solo-esque "That's not how the Force WORKS!", but I'll keep it vague.
From my perspective, I'd have to say yeah, Andy, the Force enables at least two characters in this film to pull-off some pretty impressive things!

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