BobaMike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 10:15 am
Did Williams leave off all the stuff he didn't conduct? Or did his rewriting of the ending cause it to be left off the soundtrack?
Good question. Here's hoping Michael Mattesino is working on a two-disc set as we speak!
Edmund Kattak wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 10:46 am
I guess if you write a score this sparse then it becomes pretty easy to get 2 hours plus of music with the help of two or three orchestrators.
Apparently Williams doesn't even use orchestrators anymore. He still writes by hand, but I read that his sketches are scanned into some kind of app that translates them to full score.
As for the score itself, I downloaded the score from Amazon last night but still have not had a chance to listen to it!
That ending on the album is definitely from the revised reshoot so I presume this assembly IS "the best stuff".
I need to listen to this closely but lots of FSM'ers who usually consume the koolaid are trashing the recording quality and engineering element of the music.
AndyDursin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:04 pm
That ending on the album is definitely from the revised reshoot so I presume this assembly IS "the best stuff".
I need to listen to this closely but lots of FSM'ers who usually consume the koolaid are trashing the recording quality and engineering element of the music.
It's cleanly recorded. I don't really hear on first pass what they claim. It just doesn't sound like there's much dense, transparent writing and sounds fairly thin. Combine that with today's modern recording technology and, sorry to say, there not much going on in the recording to make this sound like a big orchestra played this. There's very little in the way of room ambience. I wonder if this online release is a pre-media release master. In other words, when the CD is mastered will the mastering engineer apply any effects, room ambient reverb, frequency roll-off.
Fizzling out at the Fourth of July box-office like a wet firecracker, the much-maligned INDIANA JONES AND THE DIAL OF DESTINY serves up a leaden array of endless action scenes with a miserable female lead and a dour Indiana Jones who’s lost his mojo.
Steven Spielberg had the good sense to say no to this first Indy adventure produced under the Disney regime and Lucasfilm executive Kathleen Kennedy, whose creative miscalculations are as evident here as they’ve been within her turbulent productions in a galaxy far, far away. It’s just unfortunate Harrison Ford didn’t veto this project as well, or at least hold out for another rewrite of a script cobbled together by a series of writers including David Koepp and this movie’s director, James Mangold.
What’s on-screen is a messy film sorely missing Spielberg’s humanistic sensibilities, as well as a leading lady who could’ve better supported Ford, who here plays a retiring Professor Jones as well as, in the movie’s opening sequence, a younger version with “de-aging” FX that only fail whenever you hear the actor’s older, gravely voice coming from his more youthful looking visage. Indy’s involved in yet another globe-trotting adventure here – this time circa the late ‘60s – to find the title device, one that takes him into contact with a Nazi (Mads Mikkelsen) trying to turn back the clock, literally, and the daughter (Phoebe Waller-Bridge) of a former archaeologist colleague (Toby Jones). She’s a plucky sort who really doesn’t want Indy around, has a Short Round-wannabe tagging alongside her, as well as a conflicting set of priorities apparently meant for viewers to draw a parallel with the Indy character from the original “Raiders” – but that’s pretty much where that comparison completely ends.
Presumably one of the four credited writers on this movie did, in fact, have a good idea going involving a trip to the past and Indiana Jones, at different stages of his life, being involved in an adventure that spanned decades...but this movie manages to completely bungle whatever potential that premise originally had. A reasonably diverting first 20 minutes and an OK final reel bookend an exhausting string of frenetic action scenes, all shot in the modern blockbuster vernacular, that offer next to no dramatic engagement. It’s made even worse considering the film’s Disney-fied run time of some 2½ hours – nearly a half-hour longer than any previous entry in this series, and yet the picture doesn’t make that additional run time count where it really matters.
Ford is trying hard – and looks better here than he did in the previous (also misfired) entry in the franchise, “Kingdom of the Crystal Skull” – but he still needed some support and, there’s just no way around it, Waller-Bridge is completely miscast. Beyond the annoying scenes of her constantly talking down to/saving Indy, Waller-Bridge is never appealing all in this role, which obviously was intended by Kathleen Kennedy to pivot off this movie into her own franchise. But in a sign of how poorly judged her casting was -- because it truly sinks this movie -- she's completely out of her element throughout. Even reported re-editing that removed some of her character’s most obnoxious lines -- if that happened -- can't compensate for just her general performance, which fails on its own basic terms.
On a visual level, cinematographer Phedon Papamichael is more adept than “Crystal Skull”’s DP Janusz Kaminski and “Dial of Destiny” proves to be a sunnier looking film – even though there are lots of dead bodies (RIP Antonio Banderas, 3rd billed for 5 lines of dialogue) and a tone that's just unrelentingly "down". When Indy talks about his dead son and keeping him from being shot up in Vietnam, there's an element of "reality" being thrown into the fabric of this Saturday Matinee, comic book franchise that never existed before...and really doesn't belong here. After you digest that depressing moment, instantly you know there's never going to be any genuine relief for Indy that will save his aching heart -- no wonder why the film was clearly setting the character up for a sacrificial finale. With a reported $295 million budget (!), it’s clear loads of post-production work went on, leading to an obviously reshot finale that brings back a certain someone (“you won’t believe your eyes”...said no one ever!) -- but there's scarcely any "joy" to be felt there...or from really anything else in the film. The Spielberg touch -- even given how lifeless "Crystal Skull" was -- is sorely missed.
Musically, the disappointment extends to John Williams’ frenetic, thankless score, which has no chance to do anything but serve up leftover “Greatest Hits”-styled scraps during the interminable action scenes. There's no "down time" for drama, or human engagement, or scenes where characters really interact in a way that doesn't have to do with the plot or setting up whatever action scene is coming next.
“Dial of Destiny” is an easy sequel to dismiss, but before anyone goes "you're just an aging fanboy who wouldn't have been happy with anything," I’ll add a few easy ways this picture might’ve been good – and acknowledge straight up that time travel wasn't a bad idea. The '60s setting held promise. And sure, using a young lead to throw some of the load off an elderly Indy was also a good idea...in concept. The problem is James Mangold and this “writing staff” failed to find the potential right in front of them -- even though they had cast another female lead who was perfectly capable, in this very movie, in the form of Shaunette Renée Wilson, playing a young government agent in sizzling '60s attire, who blows Waller-Bridge off the screen in terms of charisma. One could've seen her playing some funky grad student of Indy's, getting wrapped up in a zippy time-travel adventure that might've served up a great deal of fun and contrast with Ford's "get off my lawn" old professor. Instead, after a few minutes of injecting some life on-screen, her character ends up dead -- just like the movie.
AndyDursin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:49 pm
Musically, the disappointment extends to John Williams’ frenetic, thankless score, which has no chance to do anything but serve up leftover “Greatest Hits”-styled scraps during the interminable action scenes. There's no "down time" for drama, or human engagement, or scenes where characters really interact in a way that doesn't have to do with the plot or setting up whatever action scene is coming next.
I'd love to opine on John WIlliams' score -- but most of it was so buried under sound effects I scarcely heard a note.
... even though they had cast another female lead who was perfectly capable, in this very movie, in the form of Shaunette Renée Wilson, playing a young government agent in sizzling '60s attire, who blows Waller-Bridge off the screen in terms of charisma.
Now she was terrific -- smart, spunky and (unlike Waller-Bridge) attractive as well. Too bad she exits the film in such an unceremonious fashion.
On the music, I just listened to the whole album assembly. It is what it is. If people enjoy the frenetic action cues from the Disney Star Wars scores, there's plenty of that -- for the most part, that's all there is. Doing a 2 hour release isn't going to help. There isn't even an evocative theme for the Dial like there was for the CRYSTAL SKULL -- that score, by comparison, is much more listenable and thematic. He tried to shoehorn "Helena's Theme" into this score but it's too drawn out of a theme, it doesn't have a "hook", for it to work in the confines of this "non stop", frenetically paced modern movie.
To me, Williams must have felt, hey I'm getting paid, I want to keep working, and who better to write a pastiche -- which is what this score is -- why not do it himself. And that's great. But it doesn't mean I have to like it or listen to it either.
Until now this is not the kind of score he would've written, where the score really is a grab bag of "flourishes" (I hesitate to call them "themes") cribbed from other works. And it's not just Indy -- the horse chase sounded like something out of JFK or one of his Oliver Stone scores! For decades, he scored sequels in the Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws franchises all with unique thematic content and flavor. That's not here. Saying is it better than Steve Jablonsky and I'm happy he's still working? OK, sure, agreed, but I've got decades of Williams scores all far better than this to spend time with. This is a one-and-done work for me that doesn't merit a mention alongside his classics.
There is a motif in "The Grafikos" that had promise. I wish it would have been more fully developed. I suspect had this film been more cohesive and made in the traditional fashion, he might have used something like that to serve as some underlying theme to the "Dial of Destiny." This is another good example of how modern "factory" filmmaking process approach has had a hand in destroying film music. Add in all of the reshoots and tinkering and this is what you get.
Andy: Your review is exactly what I expected from this project that should never have been made. I never saw Crystal Skull, either, and never will bother with these. It was a good movie trilogy. That's where I leave it.
Edmund Kattak wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 5:50 pm
I suspect had this film been more cohesive and made in the traditional fashion, he might have used something like that to serve as some underlying theme to the "Dial of Destiny." This is another good example of how modern "factory" filmmaking process approach has had a hand in destroying film music. Add in all of the reshoots and tinkering and this is what you get.
I finally listened to it from start to finish yesterday. "What's-her-name's theme" is nice...but it sure isn't Marion's theme or Willie's theme.
The rest of it has no little appeal. It's is mostly non-melodic suspense or action cues, consisting of short, arrested phrases with no connective tissue or musical "line".
One thing I was thinking about last night -- the "heavy" bit where Indy sobers up about Mutt's death is out of place in a way Mangold shows that he didn't understand the kind of film he was making.
It'd be like a scene including, for instance, someone breaking down about the Jews being executed in the Holocaust back in RAIDERS or LAST CRUSADE.
Just not the kind of film for that. The Nazis are "just bad". The more "reality" is dropped into the fabric of this series (just as it would be in STAR WARS) it falls apart -- or starts being something OTHER than "Indiana Jones".
In fact the more I think about it, my hunch is Spielberg departed this when the script started veering off into "Indy has nothing else to live for" territory. That's not the kind of story he would've been attracted to. There's no doubt they did kill him off in the earlier ending because the movie seems to be leading right up to it.
And the whole way they changed the ending isn't convincing either. It's still not a satisfying finale. Indy goes from relating a pretty convincing argument he needs to stay in the past, to Helena frantically telling him he has "more work to do" so they could change the ending but she's so patently unlikeable, his argument held a lot more weight!
Audiences obviously didn't want "Indy to die" -- but maybe just as significantly, they didn't want her taking over the franchise either -- so Doomcock's videos, admist other reports, that said the movie tested poorly regardless of the ending feels right on target. Plus, Karen Allen had already been brought back in CRYSTAL SKULL so there's no real novelty in her brief appearance in the reshot ending of this film.
Andy's thoughts are FAR more charitable than mine. What a miserable, slapdash, sluggish experience. What a waste of good supporting actors (WHY do that to Antonio Banderas?! And the actress who played the CIA[?] agent was far more charismatic than Fleabag. As my brother put it, "Killed the black character, huh...?"), what a waste of a distressingly gaunt-looking John Rhys-Davies (reduced to little more than Indy's Uber), what a waste of John Williams' talents (which honestly felt like he was just re-recording the temp track scraps of his previous scores...hey, there's the "Belly Of The Steel Beast" theme...for ten seconds!). The de-aging F/X are well-done, but are foiled when you hear Ford's corroded, eighty-year-old voice coming from his miraculously restored mug (and see how he still moves like a gimpy octogenarian). Like Andy said, there's no respite from the action sequences, no sense of accelerating dread or mystery, just a lot of glaringly fake CGI and shockingly lax continuity (Indy arrives at a casino at night, spends what seems like a handful of minutes there, and he and Fleabag make a hasty escape...in the middle of the day!). This ranks with A Good Day To Die Hard and Rambo: Last Blood as one of the most depressing and truly unnecessary "part fives" ever made, and the only good thing to come out of it is making Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull seem like Raiders is comparison (and the way it sh!ts all over Indy's happy ending from that film is nothing less than criminal, and needlessly downbeat for what was always intended to be lite summer escapism. I was certainly no fan of Shia LaBeouf in Skull, but he didn't deserve such an ignoble, off-screen fate). Trash, and I'm glad Disney's gonna take a bath on it (and probably take Kathleen Kennedy down with it, and good riddance).
Paul MacLean wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:48 am
I wonder, will that montage of Waller-Bridge acting-out iconic moments from the Indiana Jones movies include the college girls flirting with Indy during his lecture, and the love scene with Marion?
Well, of COURSE her character's gonna be a lesbian!
Very amusing that there's a moment where PWB says something is promising, then one of Antonio Banderas' hunky shipmates walks by, and she eyes him and says, "More promising!" She got de-lesbian'd in the reshoots, apparently.
Last edited by Monterey Jack on Sun Jul 02, 2023 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AndyDursin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 11:49 pm
Even though the Cinemascore audience rating isn't very good (only a B+, a hair ahead of Crystal Skull's B), there seem to be a group of older people who like the film. And most of them are on the FSM board!
My brother strenuously chided me when an older woman (who sat through the entire credits) said it was "fun" and asked us what we thought, and I described the movie as "wretched". I should have been more polite about that, but what was I supposed to do, say, "It's great!" through a strained smile?
I just wonder what kids and people in their twenties who didn't "grow up" with Indy are gonna think about this movie. The action is lame, the F/X suck, the leading man is ancient and his fashionably female sidekick is a drag. I don't think many kids thought much about Crystal Skull either, and it's sad to think that some kids will have their first exposure to the character via these last two movies, the same way they'll experience the animated Disney classics through these awful "live-action" remakes.
What a miserable, slapdash, sluggish experience. What a waste of good supporting actors (WHY do that to Antonio Banderas?! And the actress who played the CIA[?] agent was far more charismatic than Fleabag. As my brother put it, "Killed the black character, huh...?"), what a waste of a distressingly gaunt-looking John Rhys-Davies (reduced to little more than Indy's Uber), what a waste of John Williams' talents (which honestly felt like he was just re-recording the temp track scraps of his previous scores...hey, there's the "Belly Of The Steel Beast" theme...for ten seconds!). The de-aging F/X are well-done, but are foiled when you hear Ford's corroded, eighty-year-old voice coming from his miraculously restored mug (and see how he still moves like a gimpy octogenarian). Like Andy said, there's no respite from the action sequences, no sense of accelerating dread or mystery, just a lot of glaringly fake CGI and shockingly lax continuity (Indy arrives at a casino at night, spends what seems like a handful of minutes there, and he and Fleabag make a hasty escape...in the middle of the day!). This ranks with A Good Day To Die Hard and Rambo: Last Blood as one of the most depressing and truly unnecessary "part fives" ever made, and the only good thing to come out of it is making Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull seem like Raiders is comparison (and the way it sh!ts all over Indy's happy ending from that film is nothing less than criminal, and needlessly downbeat for what was always intended to be lite summer escapism. I was certainly no fan of Shia LaBeouf in Skull, but he didn't deserve such an ignoble, off-screen fate). Trash, and I'm glad Disney's gonna take a bath on it (and probably take Kathleen Kennedy down with it, and good riddance).
