SUPERMAN II Donner Cut: Has Arrived!!

[Carlson2005]

and what can you say when a SCREEN TEST is supposed to substitute for the movie's big scene where Lois finds out Clark's identity? There isn't even any fall-out from that moment -- no sooner does he admit "hey I'm Superman" then it cuts to Zod and Company's arrival in Texas! There's no resonance or emotion or anything here.

I can say that's all there was to use. I'm getting the impression you were expecting way too much here. There was never enough finished for more than an assembly rough cut - the well known reason they had to use the screen test - so to expect a finished, polished film was too much, especially when so much simply wasn't filmed.

[AndyDursin]

and what can you say when a SCREEN TEST is supposed to substitute for the movie's big scene where Lois finds out Clark's identity? There isn't even any fall-out from that moment -- no sooner does he admit "hey I'm Superman" then it cuts to Zod and Company's arrival in Texas! There's no resonance or emotion or anything here.

I can say that's all there was to use. I'm getting the impression you were expecting way too much here. There was never enough finished for more than an assembly rough cut - the well known reason they had to use the screen test - so to expect a finished, polished film was too much, especially when so much simply wasn't filmed.

If they needed to use a screen test for that moment, all I will say is they never should have bothered making this cut and selling it to the public as a separate, standalone release to begin with. Restoring the footage and putting it in the supplement of the actual SUPERMAN II DVD might have been a wiser move because I think they'll be getting slammed far and wide from fans over how terribly this assembly plays.

I was most definitely prepared for issues but NOT that screen test footage had to be used in what is the most pivotal scene of the film.

Selling this as a completed film to the public (and they most certainly are; there's no mention of screen test or rough footage anywhere on the packaging, just a disclaimer before the movie runs!) is irresponsible and whether you or I know the history of the project is irrelevant -- most viewers won't and are going to be duped into thinking this is a completed and finished film when it's anything but.

[Neil S. Bulk]

I think that's the issue that bothers me the most about The Donner Cut. Not the fact that it's so inept (which it is) but the utter crassness of the marketing campaign. Selling it separately here in R1 is really gutsy. In R2 it is disc 3 of the Superman II set, which makes sense, and makes it an easier pill to swallow because then it just becomes another bonus disc.

Neil

[Carlson2005]

Which is probably why it's not such a big deal on this side of the pond - no-one here is expecting a new film, merely a deluxe spin on the deleted scenes!

[AndyDursin]

Which is probably why it's not such a big deal on this side of the pond - no-one here is expecting a new film, merely a deluxe spin on the deleted scenes!

Which is what it is -- but definitely NOT what it's being sold as here.

[AndyDursin]

One thing that did bother me about the scene where Brando restores Superman's powers -- that sequence is implied, rather than explicitly shown, in Lester's version, so that when Superman "becomes Superman" again, there's some element of surprise that he IS all the way back to super-hero normal again.

In this version you don't get that element -- and Eric you are totally right, that some triumphant music would have sold the moment better than tracked music from the "destruction of Krypton" cue.

[lspear76]

You're wrong about Superman II. The Donner Cut is miles ahead Lester's version. I found the editing of Donner's cut to be super tight and fast paced.

Even Lester's scenes are improved with this editing style. Gone is the horrible small town takeover w/ the cops and hillbillies. The battle is much more serious. Gone is the stupid and silly "celophane S" scene, finger beams, and disappearing game. In it's place is Donner's original, tension-filled scene between Zod and Superman. For real film lovers, this scene is for them. Those who can appreciate the power of the mind and dialogue more than mindless action. Plus, you've got two incredibly shot Fortress scenes with Brando. The best back to back scenes in the entire series are Donner's depowering scene with that serious music, cut directly to the whitehouse takeover. It's chilling. Lester's Fortress scenes in this film don't measure up. When Superman and Lois arrive at the Fortress, the next two scenes are the worst in the film, with inane rewritten Lester dialogue. Superman and Lois discuss Supes dual nature, and Lois says "it's so confusing... but... he is you." LOL. Give me a break! It's tv show quality at its best.

I personally found the editing tight and the tone of the film serious and refreshing. I can live without Lester's lame Paris opening, Fortress scenes, comedy super breath scene, and tacked on finale forever. Just look at the super breath scene, how much improved the donner version is... it's like an entirely different movie. Gone is the comedy, the ice cream in the face, the payphone guy. The entire scene is serious and chilling now.

The Donner cut is the superior version.

[lspear76]

One thing that did bother me about the scene where Brando restores Superman's powers -- that sequence is implied, rather than explicitly shown, in Lester's version, so that when Superman "becomes Superman" again, there's some element of surprise that he IS all the way back to super-hero normal again.

In this version you don't get that element -- and Eric you are totally right, that some triumphant music would have sold the moment better than tracked music from the "destruction of Krypton" cue.

Oh come on. You seriously like the "implied" version of Superman getting his powers back, more than Brando's repowering scene? Just a few posts up you complain there's no fallout when Superman is revealed during blank bullets, yet you readily accept something as huge as Superman getting his powers back (after being told there is no return) with NO explanation. You're amateur film reviewer, to say the least.

[AndyDursin]

One thing that did bother me about the scene where Brando restores Superman's powers -- that sequence is implied, rather than explicitly shown, in Lester's version, so that when Superman "becomes Superman" again, there's some element of surprise that he IS all the way back to super-hero normal again.

In this version you don't get that element -- and Eric you are totally right, that some triumphant music would have sold the moment better than tracked music from the "destruction of Krypton" cue.

Oh come on. You seriously like the "implied" version of Superman getting his powers back, more than Brando's repowering scene? Just a few posts up you complain there's no fallout when Superman is revealed during blank bullets, yet you readily accept something as huge as Superman getting his powers back (after being told there is no return) with NO explanation. You're amateur film reviewer, to say the least.

First, I didn't say I liked the implied version more -- I said it was an element that is taken away in this version. On balance I would definitely take the Brando sequence.

Second, I entirely don't mind anyone disagreeing with me but you can take your insults somewhere else.

[Paul MacLean]

I will say it -- Ken Thorne's music might have been poorly performed but it functioned better than tracking Williams' original score.

I'm with you on that. Actually I think Thorne's music is well-performed; the problem is Williams had easily 90-100 musicians (and a small womens' chorus on top of that) whereas Thorne had considerably less. Williams also recorded Superman in the spacious Anvil Studios, whereas Thorne recorded at the considerbly smaller, drier CTS Studios.

That said, I DO think that the music in Lester's Superman II works FAR better than it does in Donner's. Although both films used Williams' music, Ken Thorne brought his years of experience in the dramatic placement and application of music to the film. Having an experienced film composer adapt, arrange and (just as importantly) conduct in sync with the picture, will yield a much better result than an editor stringing together a patchwork of cues composed for completely different movie.



"You WILL bow down before me! Both you, and then one day, your ASS!!!"

[Eric Paddon]

There's something to be said for that, and I think the only thing one can say in defense of Thau for wanting to track as much of I's score as possible was to try to maintain consistency in sound overall between I and II, and that if you hear the smaller sized sound of Thorne too much, then maybe in his mind that would have meant disrupting the so-called "Donner vision" which would have had a bigger sound.

There's also the possibility that given how much I've read that Thau was determined to avoid using pure Lester material as much as possible in order to make Donner happy, it could also be that using any of Thorne's music more than it "needed" to be used was done at Donner's behest, since given how much Thorne is associated with Richard Lester, Donner would never have wanted any of Thorne's music to underscore a scene he shot that wasn't used in the final Lester cut.

[Edmund Kattak]

Well, Andy, I want to thank you for setting up the grim expectations that I had - going into the Donner cut tonight. Although I saw a majority of it, I had to skip over the Metropolis fight scenes for purposes of wife-going-to-bed in the room wheremy HDTV is located.

All in all, I was not as disappointed in Donner's cut as you were. Chiefly, it is because I know that Richard Lester's name is on the final picture that I saw in 1981. I didn't really like it when I was 14 and don't like it now, for all of the same reasons that many complain about (Continuity problems, makeshift cheap alternate shots shot in England representing a Texas town, spirited yet "thin" sounding score, and Lester's camp.) I agree, Lester's previous films were great (HARD DAY'S NIGHT, THE THREE MUSKETEERS), but this production was doomed when the continuity of Donner's work was comprimised. It is this comprimise, in my view, that couldn't be resolved by Lester then and sure as hell can't be resolved by Donner now, god rest Christopher Reeve's soul.

Now, I'm not an avid Donner pundit. I am still reeling over the Goldsmith debacle from TIMELINE - wonderful music which is now wasted into the Hollywood phantom Zone. But I have to say that SUPERMAN II - THE DONNER CUT was a fascinating alternate version. Yes, the obvious continuity and underlying emotional story were downright jerky at times. The tracking of music was not as well conceived as could have been. But, I think you have to give the audience a little more credit to be able to differentiate between the two versions, Warner's marketing and Donner's "allusions" nothwithstanding.

With that said, I wish Donner would revisit TIMELINE and restore it back to the version with Jerry Goldsmith's score. Now, at least that would be do-able without losing much in the process - altrhough I suspect it won't make the film any better.

I am going to try an experiment. I am going to bring the Donner cut over to my nephew's house over the weekend. I know they've seen SUPERMAN II, but I'm not going to tell them it's the Donner cut. I want to see what the reaction will be. I wonder if it will be confusion - as in, "I don't remember that scene."

It should be interesting.

[Eric Paddon]

My impressions were mostly positive. This was what I wrote for another message board:

It was so close to being what it should have been, but not quite.

On the plus side, and a big plus it is, is the restoration of the Brando scenes which are so vital to completing the storyline of the first film. Also a plus is removing some of the more goofy moments.

BUT, and I hesitate to go at greater length about the negatives, but these are the things that knock the quality from a four star effort to a three star effort, there were other problems that could have and should have been avoided when making this.

First mistake was the sloppy music editing that relied almost exclusively on tracked music from the first film. This was especially true in the Main and End Title sequences, where the Superman march is chopped up rather haphazardly, and in the End Credits they should have just dispensed with a chopped up Love Theme following the chopped up March and just let the March play out in full. Also a thumbs down for weakening the impact of the power restoration scene, the most important scene restored to the film, with the "Destruction of Krypton" music. This moment of Jor-El reaching out to his son to restore his powers, required a more soaring, uplifing cue, perhaps the "Leaving Home" music or something similar because the cue just worked against the point of the scene overall, and its a testament to how the scene was directed that it still worked in spite of a bad cue being used.

Then we come to my biggest complaint, and on this one, Donner's egotism is solely to blame, and that was using the "turn back the world" ending rather than just use Lester's ending. I don't care how much Donner hates Lester, the fact is that recycling the I ending ruins the ability of this film to stand alone as a true alternate cut of II to enjoy, and instead makes it take on the characteristic of a feature length deleted scene. I could live with using the test footage for the identity revelation scene, but in this case, once the turn back time ending was used for I, there was no way Donner or Mankiewicz was going to stay with that if they had finished the film. Because you're left with the fact that (1) if Superman turns back time, the scene of him returning to the diner now makes no sense (2) nor does Superman's destruction of the Fortress of Solitude and (3) if he turns back time does this mean Jor-El *hasn't* sacrificed his spirit after all? The Lester ending would have made the film as a whole work. Without it, the film falls frustratingly short of what it could have stood alone as, and I think that's a real pity.

[DavidBanner]

Having now seen the Donner version, I'm happy it's out, but I have to agree with Andy and Eric that it's more of a compilation of deleted material than a finished film. In looking at it more as a rough cut of where Donner had left the project at the time, it plays fine. Donner himself says that this is as close to his intentions as is possible - meaning that the additional photography needed to finish his movie is impossible now due to the passage of time and the deaths of so many of the necessary people. The DVD before us just reflects what he had in mind at the time he was fired from the project.

I believe if he hadn't been fired, he would likely have filmed for another 4 to 5 months or so, to get the sequences he hadn't started yet (the East Houston sequence, the Niagra Falls sequence), to put a new ending on it (one he hadn't come up with at that time), and to complete the coverage he hadn't gotten yet for many existing scenes or to do reshoots of some pieces there. I believe he would have gone back into the Daily Planet material, as well as into the Fortress material. This rough version contains many contradictions, not the least of which is the bizarre ending and what it implies about what happened with Jor-El and the Fortress. I'm sure a completed Donner film would have addressed this, but he never got there.

One of the weirder parts of both versions of Superman II is the fate of the villains. In Lester's version, they just plummet into the mists of the Fortress, and it's implied that Superman simply leaves them and Luthor there while he flies back to Metropolis. In Donner's version, it's implied that Superman destroys the Fortress with them inside. In the deleted scenes (even more clearly than those aired on TV), we see the villains and Luthor being taken away by the Arctic Patrol, but very little is made of this. After dominating much of the film, the three villains are simply background - no words of protest from Zod now that he's lost everything, nothing of Ursa or Non resisting or any of the other things we might have expected. My impression of this was that the arrest scene was rushed, and Donner would have gone back to clean that up in some way.

The Brando scenes are really nice to see, but I strongly believe these would have been helped by the amount of dialogue looping Brando normally did on his projects. His readings are fine, but the fact is Brando always rebuilt his performances in post, something that was in his contracts at that time. (Jerry Ziesmer's book about his films including Apocalypse Now has Brando explaining that as his reason for usually murmuring his lines on set)

I am forced to agree about the score. In many places, Thorne's music does play better in II, simply because even though it's recycled Williams music, it is designed to fit the specific scenes. Repeatedly playing the same cues from the first film, including repeats within the same scene, was more jarring to me than anything else. On the other hand, if we look at this as a rough cut, this is likely how it would have sounded - most movie rough cuts I've seen, including the workprint of BLADE RUNNER, have a lot of incomplete or temp music tracks.

I can't really tell how much Donner was involved in this. From the interview with him and his discussion on the commentary, it sounds like Thau put this together and occasionally got him in to give notes on the footage. Donner himself says that he was too far removed from the project emotionally or otherwise to participate much. But then we see him participating in the sound mix and giving some pretty specific notes to Thau. And we are told that he and Tom Mankiewiecz decided to stay with the turning-back-the-world ending because they simply didn't want to have Clark Kent kissing Lois, which is what they would have had to do if they kept Lester's ending. I also get the impression that Thau really didn't have a lot of time or money to do this. Given how much footage he had to find and evaluate, and given a hard release date for the new version, it looks like he did the best he could on a REALLY tight schedule. I'm happy that he did it. As a companion disc to the Lester version, this is really valuable to have. But it's not the Holy Grail.

[Eric Paddon]

Mankiewicz's logic about Clark never kissing Lois as a justification on ditching the Lester ending struck me as dumb, because the guy was just not paying attention to the hornet's nest that was opened up story wise if the recycled ending was used. Hell, it raises the question of why didn't Superman just turn back time once he got his powers back???

Mankiewicz also errs greatly in the commentary when he leaves the impression there was a power restoration scene filmed with Susannah York. That was the one scene Lester never reshot with York.

I'm not one who gets bugged too much by tracked music (except in the choppiness of the credits and the wrong cue used for the restoration scene) or by the matter of incomplete looking FX, but story structure and a careful consideration of the plot does matter a great deal to me and I do think that if the Lester ending had been used then this cut of II could have made a strong, if not overwhelming case, for supplanting the earlier one as the definitive one.