Paul MacLean wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:29 pmDo you know how to access the thread? The page you linked to has a further link which supposedy goes to a thread where the topic is Zimmer. But that link keeps taking me to a page which says a "You are not authorised to read this forum."
I even registered, but it still takes me to that page.
The discussion got shunted off into another subforum.
Paul MacLean wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:25 am
I'm still getting the "You are not authorized" message.
Is it just closed to new members?
Perhaps. Here, I'll just cut & paste:
#2
Post
by Nasir007 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:26 pm
Monterey Jack wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:37 pm
This is as dispiriting as when the last Mission: Impossible movie got Balfe'd...even though director Christopher McQuarrie had an effective, established relationship with Joe Kraemer, which even extended to the previous M:I movie! Balfe's leaden, plodding score did an otherwise terrific movie no favors whatsoever, and you know it was studio pressure that forced him to swap out his go-to guy.
Zimmer's influence has become poisonous and all-pervasive in Hollywood. It's like Invasion Of The Composer Snatchers, everything getting flattened-out into the same generic mush, and anyone who doesn't knuckle under and consciously alter their style to adhere to the Zimmer "power chord" template getting replaced with some anonymous Remote Control intern who fetched Hans an especially good cup of coffee.
How nice was it when James Horner showed us what a superhero score used to sound like in the first Amazing Spider-Man (greatly elevating an otherwise disappointing franchise reboot)? How crushing was it when Zimmer and his pets spread their musical manure all over the already-lousy sequel?
What a great post. Zimmer's garbage noise has been polluting soundtracks for almost a decade now. His stink will now cling to Craig's last Bond film too. What a pity.
Zimmer is basically the bottom of the barrel, the absolute trash you can get to score movies these days.
Seriously, they could get no one else? How about Newman who got them a score Oscar nom and has delivered another nice score this year.
#3
Post
by nitin » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:01 pm
Yeah seriously what garbage Zimmer produced for movies like Dunkirk, Blade Runner 2049, Rango and 12 Years a Slave.
I understand Monterey Jack’s point and sentiment but calm down with the “bottom of the barrel” and “absolute trash” hyperbole.
#4
Post
by Monterey Jack » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:34 pm
I actually do like some of Zimmer's music...in moderation. But when every franchise in Hollywood is scored by one of his "pets", it gets old very fast. Were John Williams not still with us, I'm sure the recent Star Wars films would have had the same generic chugga-chugga string ostinatos and blaring foghorn blats that have invaded every crevasse of movie and television scoring over the last 15 years. I'm sick to DEATH of it, and I cringe whenever I hear he or one of his ubiquitous "additional music" composers are scoring the latest installment of a franchise with a built-in "sound", especially one as distinctive as 007. I didn't even like the Thomas Newman scores for the last two Mendes films that much, which were certainly well-written, but which didn't bear the trademark stamp established by John Barry over the course of decades. Years ago, you could tell the difference between Barry and Williams, James Horner and Alan Silvestri, Basil Poledouris and Maurice Jarre, but now every fricking thing sound like a third-rate Zimmer knockoff...even stuff written by Zimmer! I can't think of another period in movie history where every score sounded like the work of the same damn person. I hate it, I hate it so much.
#5
Post
by Monterey Jack » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:35 pm
nitin wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:01 pm
Yeah seriously what garbage Zimmer produced for movies like Dunkirk, Blade Runner 2049, Rango and 12 Years a Slave.
Hum a single theme from any of those.
#6
Post
by nitin » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:55 pm
I’m not sure why that is the only criteria for a good score. But I will say that I found the Sea Wall scored sequence in Blade Runner 2049 extremely memorable.
As I said, I agree with the sentiment in your two other posts above but calling him “absolute trash” and “bottom of the barrel” is most definitely hyperbolic nonsense (which wasn’t your posts though). But I agree that this decade has definitely led to music scores becoming terrible and generic more generally.
#7
Post
by Monterey Jack » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:02 pm
My post may have gotten a little heated, but it's like being forced to eat the same meal for fifteen years straight. You can dress it up with a variety of condiments and sides, but you still feel like you're being fed the same **** over and over, no matter how unique and tasty the meal might have been the first time you had it. I feel like I'm Oldboy (either version), trapped in a hotel room and forced to eat the same crappy Chinese takeout every day for the better part of two decades. After a while you wouldn't even be able to LOOK at Chinese food again without feeling sick. A grand tradition of film music of the past is being bulldozed and paved over by the work of ONE MAN, and I can't stand it.
#8
Post
by therewillbeblus » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:06 pm
I think Zimmer brought a level of honest pathos to The Lion King, especially the scene where Simba approaches his father’s body, that is invaluable to the power of that movie. Also, The Thin Red Line and Inception scores, especially the former, almost act like an extra layer of narrative in carrying the respective films along in emotional ways it’s hard for me to describe. I think each of those scores is quite unique and not reminiscent of his other work.
I can also hum parts of all three of those so they must be good
#9
Post
by Monterey Jack » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:09 pm
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
#10
Post
by hearthesilence » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:21 pm
Monterey Jack wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:09 pm
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Isn't that how all the Hollywood masters immortalized themselves? By being prolific as **** and hoping that the future critics of cinema focus on the few masterpieces they were lucky to churn out?
#11
Post
by ford » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:03 am
Monterey Jack wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:35 pm
nitin wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:01 pm
Yeah seriously what garbage Zimmer produced for movies like Dunkirk, Blade Runner 2049, Rango and 12 Years a Slave.
Hum a single theme from any of those.
Lol I hope you're joking.
#12
Post
by domino harvey » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:08 am
“What was your favorite part of 12 Years a Slave?”
“Oh, you know, (starts humming a tune)”
#13
Post
by Monterey Jack » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:10 am
Why have music at all if it's not gonna sound like, y'know, music?
#14
Post
by swo17 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:17 am
Best score of all time: The Bridge on the River Kwai
#15
Post
by therewillbeblus » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:22 am
swo17 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:17 am
Best score of all time: The Bridge on the River Kwai
I can only whistle it so it’s disqualified
#16
Post
by domino harvey » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:24 am
If you hum it, it sounds like you’re a pissed off soccer mom trying to get a busy clerk’s attention
#17
Post
by Monterey Jack » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:24 am
The original Star Wars could have been scored with "spacey", atonal 70's electronics or snippets of classical music, but John Williams went above and beyond and not only brilliantly serviced the film, but single-handedly saved the Big Hollywood Movie Score from extinction.
Why should we settle for today's flavorless mush when a melodic score that actually adheres to the film's narrative and characters instead of just providing a vacuum cleaner-like drone could enhance the overall experience so much? Forty years ago Superman was accompanied by Williams' ebullient orchestral fanfares and moving love themes, now he's underscored with a series of generically ascending Zimmer chords that sound like a ten-year-old's first piano lessons. Film music used to be more than just sonic wallpaper, and a big part of the art form of filmmaking is being forgotten and mistreated for no apparent reason other than studios wanting every movie to be exactly the same, right down to the technical credits. It's wrong, and I will never accept that people can't respond to a great film score if a modern day movie actually had the balls to provide them with one.
If Jaws were made today, it'd sound EXACTLY like this:
#18
Post
by soundchaser » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:47 am
Because being ultra-melodic is not the only criteria for a good film score? I’m not a huge fan of Zimmer’s work either, but it feels like you’re making an extremely narrow claim that won’t hold up to any scrutiny. (For example: I think the score for Uncut Gems is excellent, but you couldn’t call it melodic in the Korngold/Williams leitmotif tradition.)
#19
Post
by therewillbeblus » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:48 am
domino harvey wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:24 am
If you hum it, it sounds like you’re a pissed off soccer mom trying to get a busy clerk’s attention
I just tried it out and couldn’t stop laughing, thanks for that
#20
Post
by Monterey Jack » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:28 am
soundchaser wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:47 am
Because being ultra-melodic is not the only criteria for a good film score? I’m not a huge fan of Zimmer’s work either, but it feels like you’re making an extremely narrow claim that won’t hold up to any scrutiny. (For example: I think the score for Uncut Gems is excellent, but you couldn’t call it melodic in the Korngold/Williams leitmotif tradition.)
Jerry Goldsmith's Planet Of The Apes is jarring, discordant and atonal, and you certainly can't hum it, but it's also bracingly welded to the film's imagery in a moment-by-moment way that's a million miles removed from today's film music, which barely seems to acknowledge the movies they're written for at all. It's like listening to a radio playing softly in another room while watching a movie. I certainly don't need a rousing orchestral score for each and every movie, but regardless of whether it's the London Symphony with a 100 players strong, or a single guy on a kazoo, I just want music that adds something to the experience of watching a film instead of just filling quiet space.
#21
Post
by nitin » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:37 am
Again, re Zimmer in particular, you seem to want to ignore (or call it a fluke) the films where he does just that (welded to the film’s imagery) to make a general point as to the current state of film scoring which I don’t think anyone really disagrees with.
I can't stand Hans Zimmer - I have posted enough about how much I dislike his approach to film scoring and how much he and his peeps have damaged what film scoring is. Ultimately it is all a subjective opinion based on one's taste. I wonder if, back in the 50s and 60s and 70s, people were saying the same things about more modern scoring techniques used by Leonard Rosenman, Jerry Goldsmith, et. al. as I have been saying about Hans Zimmer and his peeps. I hold that those composers I mention above have more talent in composing a single bar of music than Zimmer and his peeps have in their entire collective output, but it is a subjective opinion. At the end of the day you can express it, but that's about it. People like what they like and that's that. Whether we like or not, Zimmer sells.
Way to carry the flag though for classic(al) film score composing though!
Does it actually "sell" though? People bought millions of albums for Star Wars. I can't imagine there are millions of people listening to modern Hans Zimmer scores. In fact I am sure there are not.
What it is, though, is a formula studios don't want to stray from. And film music has very little impact today. There aren't as many soundtracks being sold. People don't care as much. In 1983 you could attend a concert or hear a band or anybody playing any number of movie themes. Do you hear kids in high school performing the theme from THE WALKING DEAD or AMAZING SPIDERMAN 2? lol
I think there is a very clear distinction between music and sound design. What you heard in movies in the 60s and 70s and 80s was MUSIC. What you hear today more and more is less "scoring" and more sound design. Even Williams new Star Wars scores aren't developed thematically nearly as his original six scores were. You get a few notes instead of a theme. And movies aren't cut or paced the same way, everything is so frenetic aimed at retaining the interest of ADD riddled people. It's worse than it was 15 years ago too. Zimmer wrote a few punchy themes for the PIRATES movies and that's the last time I heard anything even halfway memorable from something he scored.
It's not really music now, it's sound design. Listen to the droning score from JOKER. Think lots of people will be downloading the music from that? So much of Williams Skywalker score is white noise too, lots of frenetic stuff and little else. Even when you get an orchestral score, much of the time it's working the same way as Zimmer's scores do.
Film music isn't what it used to be for a lot of reasons but the main takeaway is Its just one part of a filmmaking element thats being controlled less by composers and artists than it is one more part being overseen and homogenized by studios who take fewer and fewer chances by the year. Zimmer and his style is part and parcel of that, and the stunning predictability of the scores he and his associates write is all you need to know.
AndyDursin wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:41 amI think there is a very clear distinction between music and sound design. What you heard in movies in the 60s and 70s and 80s was MUSIC. What you hear today more and more is less "scoring" and more sound design. Even Williams new Star Wars scores aren't developed thematically nearly as his original six scores were. You get a few notes instead of a theme. And movies aren't cut or paced the same way, everything is so frenetic aimed at retaining the interest of ADD riddled people. It's worse than it was 15 years ago too. Zimmer wrote a few punchy themes for the PIRATES movies and that's the last time I heard anything even halfway memorable from something he scored.
I think it was the rise of aggressive 5.1 sound mixes in the early-90's that begun to sound the death knell for traditional, melodic "movie music". That, and all of the "silver age" composers who had actual compositional education (Goldsmith, Bernstein, Barry, Horner) all dying off in the early 00's or the last decade. It's one thing when it's a craft you've studied for decades and honed over dozens and dozens of projects, especially when it's for filmmakers who will just stand back and allow the creation of music that will not only "support" but also enhance the films on a dramatic and emotional level. Now, all you have to be is someone's additional-music "assistant" who can noddle around on a keyboard, and suddenly you're scoring a $200 million Hollywood blockbuster. For all the crap Danny Elfman got back in the day for being a "hummer" who just improvised his way through composing film scores and was leaning on Steve Bartek and other orchestrators who "really" wrote his music, his scores have always felt like coherent pieces of densely-detailed music, with counterpoint, melodies, odd meters, unconventional orchestration, and all of the stuff that makes music both dramatically potent and fun to listen to. For Christ's sake, a thread at Blu-Ray.com dedicated to "films you think need to be re-scored" had some dude complaining that Elfman's Justice League score was "not up to the brilliance of Junkie XL and Hans Zimmer" and ruined the film!
I just wonder if it's even possible for proper film music to have a "comeback" akin to the way the Big Movie Score did after the original Star Wars brought it back with a vengeance in the late 70's. It'd take a movie with that level of pop-culture impact, and one with a composer allowed free reign to do what he wanted and not have his work buried under a barrage of sound effects. Even though I think the score is simplistic and a retread of earlier, superior efforts, Horner's Titanic was the last movie score I can think of to move a ton of CDs even for "regular" moviegoers. Yet, a dozen years later, nobody seemed to pay much attention to his Avatar score (which was an even lazier effort).
mertz523;17234940 wrote:Justice League is the one that sticks out in my mind the most as of late.
Firing Junkie XL is just one of many crimes WB/Joss Whedon committed against this film. It's decent enough on rewatches, but the one thing I cannot stand and just cringe every time is with Elfman's horrendous score. It's the only score I don't own from the DCEU. Zimmer, Junkie XL, Gregson-Williams, and Wallfisch have amazing contributions to this series, with emphasis on the genius of Zimmer/Junkie XL with BvS.
AndyDursin wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:41 am
Does it actually "sell" though? People bought millions of albums for Star Wars. I can't imagine there are millions of people listening to modern Hans Zimmer scores. In fact I am sure there are not.
I went to a site, Celebrity Net Worth (take it for what it's worth...lol...); Zimmer's net worth is $200 million, compared with John Williams' net worth of $300 million. Somebody is buying something Zimmer is associated with - either that or Hollywood is paying him extraordinary amounts of money for not selling enough CD/digital units of whatever...or perhaps he gets a large cut of the films he scores. Just guessing there. I did not look at what his individual score albums sold (no desire to look it up)...admittedly my statement was a general assumption that his name/music sells out there. I can't explain it any other way (though I am heavily biased against what he calls "music").
I do like you thought Andy that scores nowadays are more sound design than music.
Re: MJ's post above...
I would love demographic information when people post stuff like that. Is that a teen-ager or someone in their 20s? Is it someone in their 50s who is just trying to "keep it real" and keep in touch with what moves the meter in the younger generation, or is it someone who genuinely feels that way? If someone genuinely feels that way, then good on them and that is just their taste in music. Or is someone just trying to push a button?
I think it was the rise of aggressive 5.1 sound mixes in the early-90's that begun to sound the death knell for traditional, melodic "movie music". That, and all of the "silver age" composers who had actual compositional education (Goldsmith, Bernstein, Barry, Horner) all dying off in the early 00's or the last decade. It's one thing when it's a craft you've studied for decades and honed over dozens and dozens of projects, especially when it's for filmmakers who will just stand back and allow the creation of music that will not only "support" but also enhance the films on a dramatic and emotional level.
Multi-channel stereo sound has been around since the 1950s so I don't think 5.1 has much to do with it. I just think it's a function of how movies today increasingly work -- combined with a lack of talent on the compositional side.
John Williams is scoring STAR WARS still...but it's not the same. You have to ask yourself why that it is. It's not just because he's 87. He couldn't write the 1977 score in 2019. Why?
Go watch one of those blockbusters from the late 70s and 80s again. Listen to how much dialogue there is. Watch a typical blockbuster from 2019. There are a whole lot less words being spoken -- a whole lot less scenes with humans interacting with one another -- and a lot more action and special effects sequences.
STAR WARS (1977) as I've said before is like an INDIE MOVIE compared to RISE OF SKYWALKER or whatever other Disney crap you want to compare it to. Characters talk. There's romance. There's a sense of dramatic tension from characters interacting. You don't get "down time" today -- we get 2-hour trailers instead.
Composers, no matter who they are, have a harder task today. What does function is what you said MJ, "noodling on the keyboard" and music that runs endlessly through a movie without any style or substance. That's what Zimmer has done. You could put static on the soundtrack (some people have!) and it accomplishes the same goal.
Somebody is buying something Zimmer is associated with - either that or Hollywood is paying him extraordinary amounts of money for not selling enough CD/digital units of whatever...or perhaps he gets a large cut of the films he scores. Just guessing there.
Yeah, he's getting paid extraordinary amounts for the movies he's doing. Hell, it seems every other major studio franchise movie has either him or the dozens of associates he has scoring it. The sheer AMOUNT of work he's doing is staggering. He has to get a cut whenever one of his pals scores a movie also, doesn't he? Doesn't matter what it is -- remakes, sequels, comic book movies, THE LION KING, X-MEN, DUNE remake -- about the only thing he hasn't touched yet is Star Wars and Star Trek, but even there it might be a matter of time.
What's depressing is that franchises that you wouldn't think would need him are hiring him. BLADE RUNNER 2049 and James Bond being two of them -- movies that are about as far removed from requiring his services as you'd imagine. He was on his best behavior with the former (at least the film wasn't overscored, even if what he wrote was just "background noise" pretty much) but I'm not expecting much from 007 other than his usual bag of tricks.
Maybe it'll be better than Eric Serra (the franchise's biggest disaster) and Thomas Newman (I didnt care for either of the scores he wrote). Hopefully? Maybe not.
Monterey Jack wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:24 pm
For all the crap Danny Elfman got back in the day for being a "hummer" who just improvised his way through composing film scores and was leaning on Steve Bartek and other orchestrators who "really" wrote his music, his scores have always felt like coherent pieces of densely-detailed music, with counterpoint, melodies, odd meters, unconventional orchestration, and all of the stuff that makes music both dramatically potent and fun to listen to.
Not to get off-topic, but the charges that Elfman was a "hummer" were actually baseless. A lot of people in Hollywood -- composers, sadly, among them -- dissed Elfman back in the 90s for being a "hummer". But Elfman did write it down. I've seen some of his sketches and they actually had more lines than what Jerry Goldsmith used to hand-off to Arthur Morton. This is not to slam Jerry (whose sketches contained all the detail, in shorthand) but to illustrate that Elfman did indeed write his music -- in detail.
Since he was self-taught, there were some problems -- he wrote everything in treble clef, and there were no indications for meter or key signature -- but these were things he could easily clarify verbally to the orchestrator. His instrumental indications were admittedly a bit vague: "high brass", "low brass", etc. (no specific lines for trumpets, horns, bones, etc.). But he did the writing.
