All Things BATMAN Thread

[mkaroly]

BATMAN RETURNS (1992). 9.5/10. I am probably rating this higher than I should, but to me this film is much more mature and intriguing than Burton's first effort. Elfman's score is immense and moving; the set designs and the winter season backdrop make Gotham much more mysterious, magical, and menacing. I feel it is a darker film (more Burton-esque in appearance), especially between the character relationships...which is what attracts me so much to this film. The centerpiece to this movie is the relationship between Bruce/Batman and Selina/Catwoman, and every time I watch the film I feel a little more moved by the dynamic between them. Michelle Pfeiffer really hit it out of the park in this film - she navigated the internal turmoil of her character's identity well, and her performance deserved all the accolades it got. Unlike the incredibly weak relationship between Bruce and Vicki Vale from the first film, the relationship between Bruce and Selina has a lot of bite to it...it is exciting, tragic, and in a weird way makes sense, especially since they both suffer from the same thing (though the trauma entry point was different).

I used to dislike Danny DeVito's portrayal of The Penguin. I am unfamiliar with the roots of the villain in the comics (though I am making my way through the comic books slowly and will find out one day), and I used to think that DeVito's performance was over the top in a buffoonish way which detracted from the film. However, in recent viewings I have softened quite a bit to his performance - there is a line he says in the film about monsters while talking to Max Schreck, and that comparison is interesting. In original drafts of the screenplay I guess Max Schreck was supposed to be the Cobblepot son his parents were proud of whereas Oswald was the black sheep...with all the dualities in the film this side plot was probably best left out of the movie, but the two are cut from the same cloth nonetheless. Both are monsters in their own ways, but Oswald (like Selina and Bruce) is not a 'monster' at heart - rather, his identity was shaped from trauma. Not much is said about Max (though he loves his son Chip), so maybe the most evil villain in the film is Max. Anyway, adding it all up together, despite being more serious and less cartoonish than its predecessor, BATMAN RETURNS remains for me my favorite Burton directed Batman film...and it boasts one of my favorite Danny Elfman scores.

[mkaroly]

I finished watching the Batman 60s TV show this week. Season Three was interesting in that they brought in Yvonne Craig as Batgirl (maybe to appeal to a female demographic and get rating back up) and most of the Dynamic Duo's encounters with villains were wrapped up in one episode instead of two (though there were exceptions). I kind of liked that the entire season was serialized in that one episode flowed into the next, much more so than the previous two seasons. I was critical of the villain Shame the first time I saw him; this time though, I have to admit that the Shame two part episode was one of my favorite in the series as a whole...legitimately funny. It reminded me a bit of the 60s Batman film even though it went a bit more in the obvious comedic direction. Knowing it was the final season of the show, I thoroughly enjoyed watching those episodes with Cesar Romero and Burgess Meredith (and Victor Buono) doing their thing, and I was sad after the completion of the final episode with Zsa Zsa Gabor as Minerva (weak episode but it was the last one). I also thought Anne Baxter as Olga was fantastic as a villainness in her spirited performance across from Vincent Price as Egghead.

Otherwise, there is not much positive I can say about season three. It took absurdity to new levels. I disliked how quickly the shows moved - they tried to fit so much stuff in each episode that the shows felt rushed and stiff. They obviously did not have a lot of money to do sets because most of them were bland and minimalist sets against a blackened sound stage background. Too often the show put the identities of Batman and Robin and Batgirl at risk - it got supremely tiresome as a plot point after a while (including King Tut's discovery of the Batcave). There was a Louie the Lilac episode in which Barbara Gordon was in Bruce Wayne's study with Alfred and somehow missed the red Batphone sitting right there on the desk (she was looking in the opposite direction at the time). When the phone beeped she didn't hear it at first which allowed Alfred to cover it up with a dust rag. She eventually notices it and, once it stops beeping, Alfred explains that the noise is just the ghosts of Wayne Manor...stuff like that, even for a kid I think, stretches credibility and believability. As an adult, it is boring and ridiculous. And how many times do I have to hear that Batgirl has mysteriously vanished from the scene, and whether or not Batman and Robin should try to discover her true identity? Talk about absurd - Batman can use his brain power to think of the most obnoxiously ridiculous thing that can crack a case against a villain or predict his/her next move, but he cannot put two and two together to figure out Barbara Gordon is Batgirl? Lol...

I found many of the villains to be less than interesting - Dr. Cassandra, Norma Clavicle, Siren, Minerva, Marmaduke Ffogg and Lady Penelope Peasoup. Eartha Kitt's turn as Catwoman was interesting - she had such an amazing and strong voice...just brilliant! But I missed the romantic interplay between her and Batman as well as the free spirited playfulness Newmar brought to the role. The show went above and beyond in its lampooning of surfing culture, the women's rights movement (oh boy...lol...), the mod set...the show just wallowed in its absurdity, and I think that probably ended up being a major reason why it got cancelled. Having said all that, I can still watch the show and thoroughly enjoy it for what it was. And maybe that's what it's all about - the show is campy and absurd to an unbearable degree at times; yet knowing that, everyone still performed at a high level and embraced their characters. There is a sincerity and integrity about the show as a whole that keeps me (and a whole host of others) coming back despite its flaws. For that it gets my praise in the end.

[mkaroly]

BATMAN FOREVER – 3.5/10. In the third installment of the Batman movie series Val Kilmer takes over the role of Bruce Wayne/Batman from Michael Keaton. In this story Batman has to fight off the team of former DA Harvey “Two-Face” Dent (Tommy Lee Jones) and disgruntled Wayne Enterprises employee Edward Nygma, aka The Riddler (Jim Carrey). He also decides to take Dick Grayson (Chris O’Donnell) under his wing after Dick’s family is killed by Two-Face. In addition, psychiatrist Chase Meridian (Nicole Kidman) moves to Gotham City because she is obsessed with Batman though discovers she is falling in love with Bruce Wayne. And as if those things weren’t enough, Bruce Wayne has recurrent nightmares of his parents’ funeral and a particular red book that may hold the secrets to his duality. Schumacher’s film is a much lighter and more fun film after the darker BATMAN RETURNS. It is very colorful and full of action and life as it attempts to mimic the excitement of the comic book series. I feel it is successful on that level. The story has moments of humor, pathos, romance, and horror; at times I feel the story and visuals also have a noir-like quality to them that enhance the film as a whole.

However, there is much with which I struggle about this film. Val Kilmer’s Bruce Wayne/Batman is not very animated. He is too rigid and generic in his performance. I am not a fan of Nicole Kidman either; I felt her attempts to look and act seductive/sexy/smart come off as campy (maybe that was the point) and weird, like she was trying too hard. I also find the character of Chase Meridian to be uninspired and a bad love interest for Bruce/Batman…kind of like Vicki Vale. To me there is nothing interesting about the ”love triangle” concept between Chase/Bruce/Batman. It is rather goofy and underdeveloped. O’Donnell’s Robin is okay though he is a bit whiney at times. Jim Carrey channels his inner Frank Gorshin and takes it up a notch as The Riddler – his is the type of performance art that I imagine one either likes or dislikes without room in-between. I do wish his Edward Nygma character was a little less weird at the start before he became The Riddler though. Tommy Lee Jones is decent but needs Carrey’s more magnetic and charismatic performance to balance him out. The villains are wilder than the heroes (like the TV show), which is fine. I just wish the rest of the characters were better and more balanced.

Then there is the story. The original cut of the film went through several edits, and one of the scenes that didn’t make it into the film showed Bruce Wayne as a child falling into the cave that became the Batcave. He opens up the red book that was his father’s diary and discovers that he, as a child, blamed himself for his parents’ death, thus “becoming” Batman. Wayne is then faced with a choice as an adult as to whether or not to continue to be Batman. It would have been nice to have had that scene in the film because it would have made Bruce’s story more compelling. And at this point I am tired of seeing films about Batman where part of the plot involves the discovery (by the villains or the love interest) that Bruce is Batman – all three of these Batman films have this as part of the storyline (the only time it worked for me was in BATMAN RETURNS). I liked Nygma’s “brain-wave” scheme connected to TV and sucking the IQ out of people…can’t say that isn’t still relevant today (lol) with cell phones and all the mind-numbing stuff you can do on a cell phone. On that point the film is prophetic! Elliot Goldenthal’s score has its moments; I do think it fits the noir-ish qualities of the world the film takes place in, and some of his quieter music captures the sensuality and sexual tension Schumacher was going for, but otherwise the music gets a bit irritating to me (especially that horn wailing/flourish thing he loves doing). BATMAN FOREVER, while entertaining, is definitely a step down for me in quality.

[Paul MacLean]

[AndyDursin]

I pretty much hated BATMAN FOREVER when it first came out. It was kind of stuck in a no man's land between the (relative) seriousness of the Burton pseudo-Gothic approach and Schumacher's desired tongue in cheek, over the top sensibilities -- in that way I thought BATMAN & ROBIN, which was much MORE over the top and silly, was actually more entertaining because it just kind of "went for it" and summed up what Schumacher really wanted to do with the material. It's also not very good -- but at least it's more fun, Clooney is better than Kilmer (IMO), Schwarzenegger actually is pretty good, and Alicia Silverstone was still cute and coming off CLUELESS at the time.

Here -- and I agree Michael -- Kilmer was stiff, Kidman was bad, Carrey's material wasn't very funny. Jones even kind of seemed stuck in neutral there. And then the color -- the sets -- the score. UGH. Could any movie scream "90s" more than BATMAN FOREVER?

In general I didn't have a problem with Schumacher wanting to "have fun" with the material, I just didn't care for his aesthetic choices. Goldenthal's music was noisy and unappealing -- as I found most of his film work (it's not very lyrical or melodic -- it's bombastic and shrill, just like ALIEN3. Not much I can say other than it's not for me). The sets, while expensive, came off as claustrophobic and the way he shot them makes for a really confined visual look. The garish, neon look of the film is totally of its time -- and it's terrible.

I confess it's been a while since I've seen those and Theo hasn't really seen any of the Batman flicks, yet, so I might have a fresh take the next time around -- but I'm not running back to reassess this one.

[mkaroly]

Don't rush to view this one again...lol...

The more I think about the love story, the more I think I graded it too high. I am downgrading my rating to 3.5/10. Lol...

[Monterey Jack]

I have never re-watched the Schumacher films since they were in theaters (wait...I think I watched Forever on VHS), and have no desire to do so, even in an "ironic" look-at-how-bad-this-is-and-laugh-at-it way. They strike me as one of the earliest examples of what's commonplace now, sequels that go 100% in the OPPOSITE direction of previous installments that had elements that were widely rejected by audiences. Batman Returns was too gloomy, frightening and kinky for l'il kids? Crank up the Adam West campiness so we can get that sweet Happy Meal tie-in! Much in the same way that, today, The Last Jedi was completely thrown under the bus by the godawful Rise of Skywalker, to the point where you expected Mark Hamill to turn to the camera, grab his crotch, and exclaim, "Suck it, Johnson...!" It's a very Annie WIlkes approach to franchise management that I despise, where "The Fans" get to determine the direction the series takes, and if it doesn't go where they expect, they stamp their feet and have meltdown tantrums until the studio panics and "course corrects" to appease them. It's no different than a frazzled parent ignoring their kid who keeps screaming for a candy bar in the checkout lane at the supermarket, until they hit a level of annoyance and finally buy the brat what they want.

[mkaroly]

I have never re-watched the Schumacher films since they were in theaters (wait...I think I watched Forever on VHS), and have no desire to do so, even in an "ironic" look-at-how-bad-this-is-and-laugh-at-it way. They strike me as one of the earliest examples of what's commonplace now, sequels that go 100% in the OPPOSITE direction of previous installments that had elements that were widely rejected by audiences. Batman Returns was too gloomy, frightening and kinky for l'il kids? Crank up the Adam West campiness so we can get that sweet Happy Meal tie-in! Much in the same way that, today, The Last Jedi was completely thrown under the bus by the godawful Rise of Skywalker, to the point where you expected Mark Hamill to turn to the camera, grab his crotch, and exclaim, "Suck it, Johnson...!" It's a very Annie WIlkes approach to franchise management that I despise, where "The Fans" get to determine the direction the series takes, and if it doesn't go where they expect, they stamp their feet and have meltdown tantrums until the studio panics and "course corrects" to appease them. It's no different than a frazzled parent ignoring their kid who keeps screaming for a candy bar in the checkout lane at the supermarket, until they hit a level of annoyance and finally buy the brat what they want.

The funny thing is that Batman Forever made back a little more than three times its cost, whereas Batman Returns made back about three times its cost. If their hope was to get back to the blockbuster status of Batman (1989) by making the film more humorous and comic book-like, or to breathe new life into the franchise, Schumacher's film failed. It basically didn't fare much better than Batman Returns in the end.

I have to confess I am not connecting with your comparison of BR and BF to TLJ and ROS...they seem wildly different to me. With the Batman franchise they wanted to move away from Burton's direction and try something less dark. Batman really didn't change all that much, though the actor who portrayed him did a terrible job. For the Star Wars films they completely changed the character arc of the foundational character of the franchise (making him the opposite of what he was) and then killed him off because of a personal agenda to make way for a female hero. Big difference to me between the two franchises...but maybe I am misunderstanding your point.

[AndyDursin]

Much in the same way that, today, The Last Jedi was completely thrown under the bus by the godawful Rise of Skywalker, to the point where you expected Mark Hamill to turn to the camera, grab his crotch, and exclaim, "Suck it, Johnson...!" It's a very Annie WIlkes approach to franchise management that I despise, where "The Fans" get to determine the direction the series takes, and if it doesn't go where they expect, they stamp their feet and have meltdown tantrums until the studio panics and "course corrects" to appease them. It's no different than a frazzled parent ignoring their kid who keeps screaming for a candy bar in the checkout lane at the supermarket, until they hit a level of annoyance and finally buy the brat what they want.

I don't think "the fans" should necessarily dictate things (though I'd argue they're often more right than studio executives!) but were they wrong to crap on ALIEN3 after ALIENS was such a beloved, successful film? When you destroy literally the entire sequel that came before it, and the characters in it, for a cheap reset -- to say nothing of replacing its action and suspense with banal characters and no terror at all. And sorry, I can't let it go, but THE LAST JEDI is one of the worst sequels ever made. A giant middle finger to decades of movies, comics, and other stories from that galaxy, breaking any semblance of "rules" by having characters now floating in outer space, not to mention aggressive "female-splaining" to every male character in the film throughout. That uber-feminist POV from Johnson and Kennedy sure as hell wasn't part of Lucas' legacy. At least there, the fans were completely right to throw the film under the bus, just as they are now with what Disney is doing to Indiana Jones.

It's not all about just making "the same thing" again. When you are part of previously established franchises, you at least need to be respectful and consistent with the material you are being handed -- not piss all over it like you never watched another movie in the freaking series before. And before you say "all you want is the 1977 movie again," there's a way to do a formula-breaking STAR WARS story successfully -- like THE MANDALORIAN, which has been embraced by all the fans who know the rest of Disney's Star Wars material is mostly crap. And I wasn't crazy about ROGUE ONE, but "those cranky fans!" seemed to like that one too.

With BATMAN I actually don't blame Warner for wanting something more younger-skewing/family-friendly/etc. than BATMAN RETURNS. As much as I like the movie, there was just too much self-indulgence from Burton in that sequel they let him get away with -- quite unlike the original, where his sensibilities were being curtailed by Guber-Peters, Nicholson, and the studio.