DUNE - WB/Legendary/Villeneuve

[mkaroly]

So I read this about DUNE and some of the changes they are making to bring the story to the screen from Wikipedia:

"In adapting the book written in the 1960s for the 21st century, Villeneuve wanted to reflect on realities that have happened related to overexploitation of the Earth, and considered his screenplay "a coming-of-age story, but also a call for action for the youth".[28] Other changes included altering some of the arcs of the female characters in the book. According to Rebecca Ferguson, who was cast as Lady Jessica, "Denis was very respectful of Frank’s work in the book, [but] the quality of the arcs for [many] of the women have been brought up to a new level. There were some shifts he did, and they are beautifully portrayed now."[28] Lady Jessica was given an expanded role as a soldier as well as being part of the Bene Gesserit, which the studio labeled as a "warrior priestess", comparing to the joking label of "space nun" that Villeneuve felt the book gave across.[28] Dr. Liet Kynes, the ecologist on Arrakis who is male in the novel, was also given to a female lead Sharon Duncan-Brewster to help expand the cast diversity.[28] Villeneuve also wanted to move the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from being a caricature as he was presented in the novel to a more complex antagonist.[28]"

So the Lady Jessica is now a soldier and "warrior priestess" instead of a "space nun"? Lol...how woke...and how disgustingly stupid. First, I never considered the Lady Jessica to be a "space nun"...never crossed my mind. Labelling her that is pretty insulting - she is way more complex than that. Part of the whole point of the series (up through GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE) if I am understanding it correctly is how religion can be used as its own kind of weapon that is more dangerous than any military army. The Bene Gesserit manipulate/exert (and attempt to manipulate/exert) their religious control/dominance over others through ritual, alliances for their own gain, and especially through their breeding program...they have no need to be "soldiers" and "warrior priestesses" since others can do the dirty work for them. And in DUNE MESSIAH the Reverend Mother of the Bene Gesserit is a very significant part of the conspiracy against Paul Muad'Dib. The Bene Gesserit are not "warrior priestesses." I guess for a woman to be "beautifully portrayed" on screen she has to be a Wonder Woman clone or a Rey clone (who was such a dull character in the SW movies)...so DUMB and unnecessary for an already well-written and complex character.

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I don't know if I want to support this by watching it.

Making Liet Kynes a woman just to diversify the cast is dumb too since Liet was the father of the Fremen Chani who Paul ends up marrying. I guess since the character was changed she becomes Chani's mother?? I get making the Baron Harkonnen "a more complex antagonist" since the book portrays him as a debauched, depraved person through his attraction to men.

And I hear that this movie is only half the story, and because of delays d/t COVID-19 they may not even make the second half of the book into a movie...so what's the point???

[AndyDursin]

I moved this to the DUNE thread so it wouldn't get buried in 'rona talk Michael!

I am disappointed and also not surprised by something like that. It's "woke" and it's also dumb. Instead of having to portray nuance in terms of religious allegory or what not, they're deciding to put on-screen a "more take charge female" that's like a comic book character. "Warrior priestess" WTF is this XENA? You're exactly right, it's like Wonder Woman, or whatever. Also a more commercial maneuver that surprises me from Villeneuve. I thought he was an "auteur" and this seems like a concession to put a more "marketable", identifiable character on-screen.

From the very first frames of the trailer I have been let down by everything I've seen from this movie. The whole approach looks like they took their cues from Lynch's film in terms of costumes and production design -- but not as inspired. Drab visuals, kind of a "who's who" of current franchise IP cast -- maybe it's going to still turn out alright and I want to see it, but I'm not encouraged.

I'd love for you to take a look at that JODOROWSKY'S DUNE doc some time -- that's the off the wall adaptation that we never received. And it's a great documentary too, solid for Dune and movie buffs alike.

[mkaroly]

Thanks for moving my rant to the appropriate thread...lol...I forgot this thread existed! I have every intention of watching that doc - have to order it today.

[Paul MacLean]

I guess for a woman to be "beautifully portrayed" on screen she has to be a Wonder Woman clone or a Rey clone (who was such a dull character in the SW movies)...so DUMB and unnecessary for an already well-written and complex character.

And the perspectives of "our modern era" are every bit as subjective -- and transitory -- as those of the 1960s, and certainly no more enlightened.

I hated when the LOTR films made Arwen a more foreground character and "brave warrior woman" (when she was barely a supporting character in the book).

If people want movies with "strong female characters", great -- write a new, original script with strong females. Don't attempt to "amend" a much-respected and classic book.

[mkaroly]

I guess for a woman to be "beautifully portrayed" on screen she has to be a Wonder Woman clone or a Rey clone (who was such a dull character in the SW movies)...so DUMB and unnecessary for an already well-written and complex character.

And the perspectives of "our modern era" are every bit as subjective -- and transitory -- as those of the 1960s, and certainly no more enlightened.

I hated when the LOTR films made Arwen a more foreground character and "brave warrior woman" (when she was barely a supporting character in the book).

If people want movies with "strong female characters", great -- write a new, original script with strong females. Don't attempt to "amend" a much-respected and classic book.

Exactly!! I couldn't agree with you more Paul. And great point about Arwen in LOTR.

[Monterey Jack]

If people want movies with "strong female characters", great -- write a new, original script with strong females. Don't attempt to "amend" a much-respected and classic book.

And the hell of it is, if you complain that a character from a piece of classic literature, an old comic book, or whatever is being radically altered to adhere to what is considered "woke", you get branded as a knuckle-dragging Troglodyte, doubly so if a character that used to be straight is now gay, or if a white character is now black/Hispanic/Asian, all in the name of "progress". And yet, in the not-too-distant past, if a character was black/Asian/Hispanic, and was turning into a Caucasian, it resulted in public outcries of "whitewashing!", and no one ever got crap over that. It's akin to how you can proudly wear your rainbow LGBT pin or a Black Lives Matter shirt, even at work (despite these being political statements), yet responding with a reasonable "ALL Lives Matter" will literally get you FIRED from your job. I guess that "freedom of speech" only applies to some, and not all.

[mkaroly]

I found this comment really offensive, condescending, and disrespectful:

"According to Rebecca Ferguson, who was cast as Lady Jessica, "Denis was very respectful of Frank’s work in the book, [but] the quality of the arcs for [many] of the women have been brought up to a new level. There were some shifts he did, and they are beautifully portrayed now."

Fans of DUNE are both male and female. They have kept the fires burning for these book for a long time. Did Rebecca even read any of the books at all? If she didn't at least read through the first three books, she really has no right to speak of the "quality" of the arcs of female characters in that universe. I would say that making the Lady Jessica a "warrior priestess" brings her character down to a low level. If Rebecca is gung-ho to play a Wonder Woman/Xena/Rey type character, why not collaborate with someone to build a character from scratch?

There are certainly talented people in Hollywood and elsewhere, but where are the true visionaries in Hollywood? As much as I complained about George Lucas and his decision making in some of the SW movies, I still consider him a visionary. He created a universe of character and a lore from scratch (even though he was obviously influenced by other films and characters). The ALIEN universe was created from scratch...and the main hero of the story was a strong female character...a "warrior" (though not a priestess) in her own right and strong for any number of reasons other than that. Where are the visionaries who can create that universe? I get that with Disney around that type of "visionary" is suppressed and rejected, but it seems to me it is better to try the visionary approach rather than, as Paul said, "'amend[ing]' a much-respected and classic book."

Now my rant is over...lol...

[mkaroly]

Jodorowsky's DUNE (2013): 10/10. Wow...lol...I had no idea this project even existed! In 1975, surrealist filmmaker Alejandro Jodorowsky, with the backing of French producer Michel Seydoux, decided to adapt Frank Herbert's DUNE into a motion picture that would change history. The team of talent he assembled to make this movie is astounding: H.R. Giger, Jean "Moebius" Giraud, and Dan O'Bannon (before they worked on ALIEN), Chris Foss, Orson Welles, Mick Jagger, Salvador Dali, David Carradine, Udo Kier...Jodorowsky's goal was to give people the experience of an LSD trip without having to take LSD. He poured his life into realizing his dream of making this movie...only to have Hollywood studios turn him down. His DUNE project ultimately fell through and never got made; the rights got sold to Dino de Laurentiis and David Lynch ended up adapting DUNE into a film. However, in the years since 1975 bits and pieces of the DUNE project have showed up in Jodorowsky's projects with graphic novels/comic books he has since written with Moebius.

Right off the bat I have to say that I do not get the whole surrealist/avant garde thing...I have no desire to watch any of this dude's films. Jodorowsky is a passionate dude, and his adaptation of DUNE would have been off the charts strange and unrelated to the book. Be that as it may, his attempted adaptation of DUNE's lasting legacy is the influence it had on several movies that came after it - a few of the drawings H.R. Giger did for the Baron Harkonnen's castle show up in Ridley Scott's PROMETHEUS (I wonder if he knew where those drawings initially came from??); one could argue that Jodorowsky's "droid vision" idea at one point in the story was an influence on THE TERMINATOR's "cyborg vision." When he and Seydoux shopped his idea around Hollywood in order to get the $5 million necessary to finish financing the film, they passed out elaborate storyboard books to the studios (you get to see one in Jodorowsky's home). I imagine that was where people at the different studios found inspiration for some of the ideas in their films (FLASH GORDON is another one that seems to have been influenced by Jodorowsky's DUNE).

Although not one frame of film was ever filmed for Jodorowsky's version of DUNE, I imagine it would have been an amazing visual spectacle. Jodorowsky makes it clear in this documentary that the written word and the visual "word" are necessarily different - his interpretation of Dune was what he wanted it to be (his "dream'), and for that reason I highly doubt his story would have successfully represented the context of the original novel. The cast he assembled (Jagger, Carradine, Dali, Kier, Welles)...maybe it would have worked, but I feel as if it wouldn't have worked well at all. And, being a surrealist filmmaker (albeit with a large cult following due to El Topo and The Holy Mountain), I am not sure general audiences would have connected with what he was trying to accomplish - then again, it was the 70s and people were doing drugs and trippin', so who knows? The documentary is great as Andy says - more than anything else it is a look inside the passionate and surrealistic mind of Alejandro Jodorowsky. Well worth your time even if you are not a fan of the DUNE series or Jodorowsky himself.

[mkaroly]

Also...I found this the other day:



Makes sense that Brian Herbert is doing this for fans (especially with a new movie coming out). I just got my copy...volume 1 of a 3 volume set that covers the first DUNE book. Supposedly it is a very faithful adaptation of the book...I am hoping so!

[AndyDursin]

Michael I knew you would be a huge fan of the Jodorowsky doc. I love it -- I think it's a great "unmade movie" profile. And it's perfectly believable it wouldn't have worked, or been TOO "out there" -- but I still would've liked to have seen it.

Here's the full trailer for the new movie. I wish I could say I'm excited about seeing it.

[Monterey Jack]

And the hell of it is, if you complain that a character from a piece of classic literature, an old comic book, or whatever is being radically altered to adhere to what is considered "woke", you get branded as a knuckle-dragging Troglodyte, doubly so if a character that used to be straight is now gay, or if a white character is now black/Hispanic/Asian, all in the name of "progress". And yet, in the not-too-distant past, if a character was black/Asian/Hispanic, and was turning into a Caucasian, it resulted in public outcries of "whitewashing!",

I mean, LOOK AT THIS...!



What's with the "Gingerpocalypse"...?

[Paul MacLean]

I like the Jawa sandcrawlers at 1:44.

The girl is cute.

But the visual style is just a stripped-down version of Lynch's film, cleaved to the usual bloated, "MCU blockbuster" look. Say what you like about the Lynch movie -- but you can't say it wasn't different than anything that came before (or has come since).

The female vocalist clearing her throat at the end of the trailer is the nail in the coffin though.

[AndyDursin]

That's the girl who plays MJ in the newest Spider-Man movies. She looks fine in this part, but overall, this movie looks like a Marvel version of the Lynch film, each time I see a trailer, more and more that's how it comes off.

Add Zimmer in and I'll be watching this on HBO Max. (Sorry movie theaters -- especially if I have to put a mask back on!!

[mkaroly]

I like the Jawa sandcrawlers at 1:44.

The female vocalist clearing her throat at the end of the trailer is the nail in the coffin though.

Ha ha ha!!

[mkaroly]

My biggest concern is how the filmmakers and writers adapted the book to "fit" contemporary moviemaking expectations. There are fight scenes/battles in the book, but at 800+ pages it is much more of a character driven story. My fear is that, in order to satisfy "modern" audiences that have the attention span of gnats, the filmmakers are going to jettison/sacrifice character for spectacle. I get that they don't have hours and hours to tell the story, but there is nothing wrong with making a character drama that has action in it as opposed to making an action film that has character drama in it (i.e. Marvel films)...if that makes sense. I know they are going to excise the Baron Harkkonen's homosexuality as a vice...understandable. I am still not on board with making the Lady Jessica a warrior princess instead of a 'space nun' (still irked that someone would call her that).

Regardless I will go see the film and maybe try to read the book again before seeing it in order to refresh my memory. I am not positive but I think this movie is a part one of two films that are coming out which will tell the whole story of the first book of the DUNE series. I may be wrong on that though.