Star Trek - The Motion Picture DIRECTOR'S EDITION UHD/BD Release; Limited Set Includes 1983 TV Version!

[John Johnson]

Andy don't get me started again on why I felt storyline consistency should have required keeping Horner's theme for IV even if he didn't write the main score for the film!

Rosenman got the scoring gig because he was close friend of Nimoy, plus he wasn't impressed with Horner's score.

[Eric Paddon]

Yes, I know. But when your film is part of an ongoing storyline trilogy and not separate stand-alone films, some thematic consistency is in order even if you replace composers on the main score proper. Rosenmann could have done the main score while keeping Horner's theme for the credits. After two films that saw the movie franchise starting to find itself after the first film had misfired, I had come to take for granted Horner's theme as the new defacto sound of the series in the tradition of other cinematic franchise themes of the day.

[AndyDursin]

So totally disagree, but I've made my point previous.

[Paul MacLean]

Rosenman got the scoring gig because he was close friend of Nimoy, plus he wasn't impressed with Horner's score.

Interesting. I never knew Nimoy didn't like it. Sounds like "bitter dregs" on his part.

After two films that saw the movie franchise starting to find itself after the first film had misfired, I had come to take for granted Horner's theme as the new defacto sound of the series in the tradition of other cinematic franchise themes of the day.

Thematically, the scores for the Star Trek franchise became a thematic free-for-all -- Horner creating a new theme for II, Rosenman coming-up with his theme for IV -- and Goldsmith bringing back his TMP theme for V (and the three TNG pictures he scored), which, when you think about, makes no sense as none of the sequels have any connection to the original.

Preserving Horner's theme for the franchise II and on would have made sense on a certain level -- but I'm sure established "big shots" like Rosenman and Goldsmith found the idea of using "that kid's" theme unacceptable.

[AndyDursin]

Interesting. I never knew Nimoy didn't like it.

It's mentioned in the FSM CD that Nimoy wanted Rosenman on III but Harve Bennett persuaded him to bring Horner back for continuity purposes. Nimoy had more control when he returned for IV so he was able to hire him then, though it also looks like they were ready to make a host of changes with the film so there wasn't much resistance to it (unlike II & III, it wasn't produced by Paramount's TV division, had a bigger budget, shot on location, made a lighter and less dense story, etc.).

In fact, the move away from Horner's music was even mentioned specifically in the script for IV, where it specifically says:

A HORN sounds the STAR TREK FANFARE, and we begin to
MOVE FORWARD. MAIN TITLES begin. And to the delight
of Star Trek lovers everywhere, the MUSIC OVER the
early credits is the SERIES THEME by Alexander Courage.
We're in for a classic, good old Star Trek time.

Rosenman even tried doing that (his opening credits with the Courage theme is on the expanded CD), but everyone liked his own theme better and used that instead. The larger point is that they wanted to go back to the series and the spirit of it, and not make another "heavy" going story.

The change in music was always meant to reflect that, and looks like it was planned well in advance of even Rosenman being hired.

[Paul MacLean]

In fact, the move away from Horner's music was even mentioned specifically in the script...

I read in interview in which Rosenman opined that Goldsmith and Horner's attempts to create new Star Trek themes was "shoveling sand against the waves" as Courage's theme was so indelibly etched in peoples' minds.

Ironically, despite the fact Star Trek IV was supposed to use the Courage theme over the main titles, Nimoy liked Rosenman's end title so much he asked him to write a main title version as well!

[AndyDursin]

Exactly that's what I was saying, Rosenman tried doing the Courage theme for the main titles but they liked his own music better and opened the film with it instead.

I always loved the Courage theme as a kid but shoehorning it into the movies was always difficult -- it comes out of a different era so other than the "fanfare" part of it, it's not very "adaptable" either! I felt the worst use of it was Giacchino's dismal arrangement over his Trek scores. Sounded like when John Ottman wrung all the harmony out of Williams' Superman themes.

[Paul MacLean]

I'm pretty sure Roddenberry wanted in TMP because he would get royalties.

You've heard that story, right -- about how Roddenberry added lyrics to Courage's theme after it was written so he could say "It's a song! I co-composed it, so I get half the royalties!"

[Eric W.]

I'm pretty sure Roddenberry wanted in TMP because he would get royalties.

You've heard that story, right -- about how Roddenberry added lyrics to Courage's theme after it was written so he could say "It's a song! I co-composed it, so I get half the royalties!"

Yes.

[Eric Paddon]

IMO, Horner had effectively found a way of bridging the series to the movies the way he used the TV fanfare in his main theme at the beginning and once within it as well, which was in total contrast to Goldsmith who didn't feel the need to use anything of the TV theme (if I recall, the only time when the TV theme is heard as underscore when Kirk does a log entry is for a cue specifically written by Fred Steiner). While I liked Goldsmith's theme, the total absence of just a quote of it was what made TMP feel so "off" to fans of the TV series in contrast to how WOK seemed to nail everything perfectly. Horner IMO had found the right "sound" for the new direction of the franchise and accordingly I expected that to be a constant from that point on in the movie franchise which his return in III had further cemented in my mind.

I have mentioned before that my dissatisfaction with IV combined with my negative reaction to the first episode of TNG was what drove me out of Trekdom completely at the time. In a sense my dissatisfaction with the storyline of IV (I simply do not believe it's good storytelling when you give us a three act storyline and your first act is City-style pathos and suddenly for your last act you veer into "A Piece Of The Action") was compounded by the fact I didn't even have the comfort zone of Horner's familiar theme to fall back on. Had I heard it again for the end credits, I might have been just a smidgen more charitable than I was. But that's just my personal subjective feeling on the matter.

To this day I have still never seen V or VI. I only saw "Generations" because I was roped into a group outing for it and I have seen only one other episode of TNG and "First Contact" plus the Tribbles episode of DS9 for the sum total of my post-IV Trek viewing experience. That's the ultimate comment on what that film and to a lesser extent its music change did to me!

[Edmund Kattak]

IMO, Horner had effectively found a way of bridging the series to the movies the way he used the TV fanfare in his main theme at the beginning and once within it as well, which was in total contrast to Goldsmith who didn't feel the need to use anything of the TV theme (if I recall, the only time when the TV theme is heard as underscore when Kirk does a log entry is for a cue specifically written by Fred Steiner). While I liked Goldsmith's theme, the total absence of just a quote of it was what made TMP feel so "off" to fans of the TV series in contrast to how WOK seemed to nail everything perfectly. Horner IMO had found the right "sound" for the new direction of the franchise and accordingly I expected that to be a constant from that point on in the movie franchise which his return in III had further cemented in my mind.

I have mentioned before that my dissatisfaction with IV combined with my negative reaction to the first episode of TNG was what drove me out of Trekdom completely at the time. In a sense my dissatisfaction with the storyline of IV (I simply do not believe it's good storytelling when you give us a three act storyline and your first act is City-style pathos and suddenly for your last act you veer into "A Piece Of The Action") was compounded by the fact I didn't even have the comfort zone of Horner's familiar theme to fall back on. Had I heard it again for the end credits, I might have been just a smidgen more charitable than I was. But that's just my personal subjective feeling on the matter.

To this day I have still never seen V or VI. I only saw "Generations" because I was roped into a group outing for it and I have seen only one other episode of TNG and "First Contact" plus the Tribbles episode of DS9 for the sum total of my post-IV Trek viewing experience. That's the ultimate comment on what that film and to a lesser extent its music change did to me!

I have mixed feelings about Horner's two scores, but I will say this. Lately, I've been drawing comparisons to scoring approaches between what Horner wrote for the Space Dock fly-up sequence in ST3 compared to how Giacchino handles a similar scene in ST:BEYOND. Horner sticks with his "Genesis" theme in a tonally-balanced, melodic rendition as the ship flys up and into space dock. As a viewer, there is a combined sense of awe that is grounded in a rather subdued form until the ship finally stops with Rand shaking her head at the damaged ship. Whereas, Giacchino's execution for the Enterprise pulling into "Yorktown" is rather pompous, over-the-top complete with chorus and forced wonderment, working very hard to tell you "Hey, this is awesome." This seems symptomatic with a lot of the scoring in the past 15 years or so. Horner definitely nailed it, but more importantly, for only being what, 34 years old, he had the instinct to do it that way. That's not to say that I didn't think he came off as a bit snobbish (that acquired British accent didn't help) in some interviews, but he got it. Ultimately, that's why I warmed up to him.

I think on ST:2, didn't Harve Bennett or Nicholas Meyer insist he use the opening Courage bars? Things were so chaotic on TMP that I doubt Goldsmith even had the time to work on integrating it. From what I recall during the interview, there was no theme asked for him to write during his time scoring. He said that they were going to just track in versions of the TV theme - and that even went by the wayside as the production came to a conclusion. I think if more thought went into that execution, then he would have used it. He did use the Courage theme in the Opening of ST:V and every Trek movie he did after that. So I think that the TMP production (Especially those opening credits) was a factor in it's lack of integral musical identity with the show. Now flip that scenario for second. Giacchino uses a badly overemphasized rendition of that theme to conclude each of his JJ Abrams Trek movies. It makes me cringe every time because of it's pompously tacky execution, but further emphasizes that his own theme couldn't carry it anyway because it's so low-energy and not very malleable in context of his own score.

[AndyDursin]

Giacchino uses a badly overemphasized rendition of that theme to conclude each of his JJ Abrams Trek movies. It makes me cringe every time because of it's pompously tacky execution, but further emphasizes that his own theme couldn't carry it anyway because it's so low-energy and not very malleable in context of his own score.

It's absolutely awful and doesn't tonally work at all with his score. The second the end credits start it's like nails on the chalkboard.

As for Jerry using the theme in TMP, I think the worst cue in the TMP score is the arrangement of the TV theme -- wasn't it by Fred Steiner? It's like all of a sudden we're back to the '60s and "later tonight on Star Trek...".

If he had more time -- and he had zero time -- I agree that Jerry might've/could've adapted it for the opening bars of the credits, but either way, his TMP score is one of the greatest scores of all-time IMO. I always LOVED the theme too. Growing up I preferred it over Horner's theme and always wondered why they didn't bring it back -- my guess was always it was associated with TMP's rep (despite its box-office success).

I've always been glad Shatner brought Jerry back for V and it, along with TNG's usage, became the "de facto" Trek theme after that.

[Paul MacLean]

Horner definitely nailed it, but more importantly, for only being what, 34 years old, he had the instinct to do it that way. That's not to say that I didn't think he came off as a bit snobbish (that acquired British accent didn't help) in some interviews, but he got it. Ultimately, that's why I warmed up to him.

Actually he was only 30 when he scored Star Trek III!

As far as the British accent, Horner spent much of his childhood in London, and later returned there to study at the Royal Academy of Music. So, I'm not sure whether it was the British or American accent that was put on!

Your observation got me thinking how Elmer Bernstein took-on a slight British accent after marrying his second wife Eve (who was from England).

John Williams seemed to make an effort to lose his "New Yawk" drawl as he got older, as it was still very thick in the early 1970s...

Things were so chaotic on TMP that I doubt Goldsmith even had the time to work on integrating it. From what I recall during the interview, there was no theme asked for him to write during his time scoring. He said that they were going to just track in versions of the TV theme - and that even went by the wayside as the production came to a conclusion.

My understanding was the Goldsmith took the job on the condition he would be able to compose his own new theme -- but he accepted the filmmakers' desire for the Alexander Courage theme to be played in two or three scenes. (Courage himself did the arrangement for TMP.)

[mkaroly]

I found the use of the original Star Trek theme in ST:TMP to be kind of out of place...it didn't fit into what Goldsmith was doing even though it was THE theme for those characters. I agree with Andy on the score's merits and I feel it is super top-tier Jerry - it is a unique, operatic science-fiction score that fits in the Star Trek science-fiction universe (much like ALIEN fits in its own unique, horror filled ALIEN science-fiction universe)...if that makes any sense. I thought Horner's themes in and music for ST 2 fit the movie perfectly - the action, the tension, and the pathos of it - but I didn't want it to be the "sound" of the film music moving forward.

[Edmund Kattak]

Horner definitely nailed it, but more importantly, for only being what, 34 years old, he had the instinct to do it that way. That's not to say that I didn't think he came off as a bit snobbish (that acquired British accent didn't help) in some interviews, but he got it. Ultimately, that's why I warmed up to him.

Actually he was only 30 when he scored Star Trek III!

As far as the British accent, Horner spent much of his childhood in London, and later returned there to study at the Royal Academy of Music. So, I'm not sure whether it was the British or American accent that was put on!

Your observation got me thinking how Elmer Bernstein took-on a slight British accent after marrying his second wife Eve (who was from England).

John Williams seemed to make an effort to lose his "New Yawk" drawl as he got older, as it was still very thick in the early 1970s...

Things were so chaotic on TMP that I doubt Goldsmith even had the time to work on integrating it. From what I recall during the interview, there was no theme asked for him to write during his time scoring. He said that they were going to just track in versions of the TV theme - and that even went by the wayside as the production came to a conclusion.

My understanding was the Goldsmith took the job on the condition he would be able to compose his own new theme -- but he accepted the filmmakers' desire for the Alexander Courage theme to be played in two or three scenes. (Courage himself did the arrangement for TMP.)

After a run-in with my cousin who I haven't seen in 30 years, I understand it better now. She married a New Zealander and has lived down under for a while. She has this weird hybrid New York-New Zealand accent that she's absorbed. It's actually improved her New York accent significantly!