NO TIME TO DIE [Bond 25] - SPOILER Talk

[AndyDursin]

I'm not sure it's even better than the Smith track, they'll both be something I only have to listen to if I see the movie.

The QoS song was horrendous also but in a different way. I didn't mind Casino Royale which at least has a decent hook, it's the part where Cornell starts screaming at the end I have a problem with.

[Paul MacLean]

Does she live in an iron lung?

It sounds like it.

[AndyDursin]

No melodic hook in the song at all. I mean it's one thing to be dreary and sleepy, but at least put a melody in there.

[mkaroly]

Maybe it is a post-modern attempt to be "sultry." if so, being "sultry" is not the same as comatose.

[Paul MacLean]

On hearing this "teen prodigy" I realize now that the Bond producers totally missed the boat by not signing Debbie Gibson and Fiona Apple to record title songs.

[AndyDursin]

So it's not even a "full Zimmer score," it's him and his buddies, as always.

Fukunaga added: “I’m beyond excited that Hans is scoring No Time To Die. The music of Bond has always been iconic and I’ve already witnessed Hans adding his touch of genius to the Bond legacy.” Johnny Marr joined Zimmer in scoring the soundtrack and as featured guitarist, with additional music by composer and score producer Steve Mazzaro. Both have previously worked with Zimmer.

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/news/han ... FfvQ0PWgaI

[Monterey Jack]

Is there a single Zimmer score where he hasn't had an army of (admittedly usually credited) ghostwriters he farms out half the score to? This is not a surprise.

[mkaroly]

"Adding his touch of genius to the Bond legacy"??? Genius??? BAAAA HAAAA HAAAA!!!!!

[AndyDursin]

Is there a single Zimmer score where he hasn't had an army of (admittedly usually credited) ghostwriters he farms out half the score to? This is not a surprise.

There are clearly some scores where he is more involved than others, the Batman movies especially. You would think with a property like Bond he would at least have the appearance of doing it himself or at least you'd find out later how little of it he actually wrote. Instead we already publicly know who the co-composer is and the film hasn't been released.

[Monterey Jack]

You would think with a property like Bond he would at least have the appearance of doing it himself or at least you'd find out later how little of it he actually wrote. Instead we already publicly know who the co-composer is and the film hasn't been released.

That's one thing I do give Zimmer credit for...he's pretty up-front about giving his "pets" due credit in the films. It's not like Birds Of Prey, which had a female director, but distinctly shied away from noting that the action sequences were pretty much (re)done by John Wick's Chad Stahelski when Cathy Yan proved not up to the task.

Ironically, 25 years ago, it was Shirley Walker giving a huge boost to scores by male composers like Brad Fiedel and Graeme Revell with her orchestration and conducting skills, instead of being allowed to score the kinds of action and horror films she would have excelled at.

[Paul MacLean]

Ironically, 25 years ago, it was Shirley Walker giving a huge boost to scores by male composers like Brad Fiedel and Graeme Revell with her orchestration and conducting skills, instead of being allowed to score the kinds of action and horror films she would have excelled at.

I attended a Zimmer scoring session once (before he was very well-known). Shirley Walker was running the whole show, while Hans was kind of loitering and hanging out. When the director requested a change, it was Walker who came up with the solution, and dictated the changes to the musicians. When Hans was solicited for his thoughts on Shirley's idea, he joked that he didn't even understand the musical terms she used.

Certainly, Zimmer composed the music -- I'm sure all the melody and harmony, a fair bit of the counterpoint was his. But Walker set all the music for orchestra, and conducted. Clearly her role was more collaborative then, say, Arthur Morton (who just copied out Jerry Goldsmith's "shorthand").

That's one thing I do give Zimmer credit for...he's pretty up-front about giving his "pets" due credit in the films.

Yeah, Hans certainly was not trying to hide Shirley's contribution (he almost seemed to want to keep a low-profile at the session).

Nevertheless, the "collaboration" approach which Zimmer clearly favors, does not, in my estimation, give birth to the best possible result. Zimmer by all accounts also happily invites the filmmakers to give a lot of input as well. And since Zimmer composese on a keyboard -- and can provide fairly complete demos -- filmmakers can micromanage the score while it is still being written (whereas in the "old days" the composer would play them themes on a piano, but they really didn't know what they were going to get until the day of the session).

The irony is that ZImmer has acquired this "rock star" or "icon" status -- when most of "his" music is co-created with others.

[Monterey Jack]

I also appreciate that Zimmer did the synth portions of Walker's Memoirs Of An Invisible Man and Batman: Mask Of The Phantasm scores, proving how much he valued her contributions to his early work.

Still, if he valued it that much, why not push to get her hired for some more big movies? Same thing with Elfman. Composers like them in the late 80's and early 90's stood on her shoulders to attain new heights in their careers, yet wouldn't reach down to give her a boost as well? And yeah, sexism probably played a hand in that. If Walker were alive today, she might have started to get more feature or TV work based more on her gender than her actual talent, but at least she would have had the talent to back that up, instead of that Zimmer pet who got to score Captain Marvel based more on her boss' influence and her genitalia than her previous output.

[AndyDursin]

Shirley Walker seemed like she more capable as an orchestrator and arranger than she was a composer. The first two things require a certain set of skills, and she was obviously very adept at them. But her scoring ability -- that's something altogether different. I don't think, honestly, that sexism had anything to do with her being held back necessarily on that end or that she "never had a chance." She scored more movies in Hollywood than any other woman up until that time, and did a generally serviceable job with most of them...but do you detect a lot of musical genius at work in the likes of MEMOIRS OF AN INVISIBLE MAN, FINAL DESTINATION, TURBULENCE or, say, TRUE LIES (where she apparently wrote a good amount of that) or ESCAPE FROM L.A.?

Certainly she was capable of writing a "respectable" score on her own merits, but in terms of what she actually composed, IMO she didn't seem to have the ability of a Rachel Portman. When she was most effective, it was when she was arranging something like Coppola's BLACK STALLION (the rescored cues she basically supervised) or writing in a vein like Elfman on the Batman properties she worked on.

I wholeheartedly agree she had more talent than Pinar whoever -- and she'd be getting a lot more recognition and work in 2020 because of her gender -- but it's not like she never had a chance to score a feature film because she was a woman. She really was one of the pioneers in the field, but remember that she was also working at a time when great film composers were still routinely getting the best assignments for a reason, so opportunities for her -- or anyone -- would be limited.

[Paul MacLean]

I think Shirley Walker could have carved-out more of a reputation had she been given better assignments. She never got a shot at anything in the vein of Star Wars, Dances With Wolves, etc.

Whether sexism played a role is hard to say. I do think it was part of the reason, but people in the business also get pigeon-holed -- very few orchestrators graduated to the status of A-list film composer (John Williams and Andre Previn are about the only ones I can think of who did). Herb Spencer, Arthur Morton, Al Woodbury, Michael Mention, Christopher Palmer, etc. -- all great musicians, but despite the occasional TV score or low-budget feature, none went on to be career film composers. Indeed, Walker had a more successful career than any of those guys.

As far as Batman movies, while it's undeniable Walker's scores followed the stylistic template established by Elfman, I think her scores were as impressive, and in some ways more so. Her "Joker" theme was enormously clever -- goofy on its own, but chilling in tandem with character on-screen. And for me personally, there isn't a more impressive piece of music written for any Batman production than her main title for Mask of the Phantasm.

[AndyDursin]

I will part company in that I found her Joker music overtly cartoonish (and annoying), like something out of Romper Room (dating myself badly there lol). But I do like the main titles!