While doing stuff around the house this weekend I popped on FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING. I find Tolkien a bore (couldn't get through this book or The Hobbit), but I thoroughly enjoyed the LOTR movies. The massive amount of work in these is just staggering to think about.

But the key to my enjoying these movies as I have no other epic trilogy/series is the quantity of great moments. Not so much scenes, but the little shots and bits that are what separate good movies from great.

Some examples from different movies:

LOTR:FOTR--When Christopher Lee starts moving forward carrying the two staffs, with that look of menace on his face, while Howard Shore's score is pounding away. Believe it or not, this was the "OK, you've got me" moment of this series. And I'm not even sure why. The other big "wow!" moments for me in this movie: When the stairway starts cracking while they're trying to escape the Balrog. That low shot looking up as dust starts falling had me going "Oh, ****!"; after Gandalf falls, the look on Legolas's face once they're outside, like he just can't grasp what's just happened, that Gandalf is gone.

BONNIE AND CLYDE--Bonnie's last look just before the gunfire erupts.

THE WILD BUNCH--When William Holden shoots, followed by...nothing. Are they gonna get out of this alive? Then he looks for someone else to shoot...

RETURN OF THE JEDI--Not one of my favorite movies ever, but when the camera moves as Luke goes hog wild on Vader, and the score expresses the full tragedy of the situation, I'm THERE, at least for a few seconds.

Any others?

JSWalsh wrote:While doing stuff around the house this weekend I popped on FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING. I find Tolkien a bore (couldn't get through this book or The Hobbit), but I thoroughly enjoyed the LOTR movies. The massive amount of work in these is just staggering to think about.

Uh-oh...here we go again, JS!

In my case I was completely captivated by Tolkien's entire "Middle Earth" saga. I read 'em all -- The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings. I couldn't put them down.

I tried so hard to like the movies...but for me, they were unquestionably the most disappointing films I have ever seen. I could expound on the addition of pointless scenes found nowhere in the books, the incongruous alteration of the characters' actions (which Jackson justified by saying "Tolkien was wrong"), the annoying overuse of CGI gimmickry, and the rather lacklustre score.

But at the end of the day, the fact is, I simply didn't care about the characters or story, and I was bored most of the time watching these movies. I was honestly thought Krull was more entertaining (if only because of the score).

Hated KRULL, but really enjoyed LOTR, probably because I couldn't read the books so I had nothing to be disappointed about.

What's interesting about the history of book adaptation is that at no point was the book considered sacred. On Broadway, a writer is considered one of the high priests of the process--you can't just change things. But in movies, the attitude is "We bought the book, it's ours, and we actually know better than the original writer--we have some objectivity."

I would probably find these movies disappointing if I managed to get through the books, but I think I am actually the perfect audience for this kind of thing--I don't care for books about elves and crap, but I do like spectacles. I can be as critical as any LOTR enthusiast--in terms of characterization, for example, I see many, MANY lost opportunities--and I could write a post as long as your arm about what's wrong with these movies.

But I really think it has something to do with age. Nowadays I dismiss and shut off more movies than ever--I have grown a sixth sense about what I will or will not like in a movie.

I AM LEGEND is one of my alltime favorite books, and the Will Smith version is dreadful. But the first half--until the woman shows up--I found reasonably entertaining (geez, there's a prevarication, eh?). One scene, where Smith follows the dog into a dark place, is just perfect, and shows they COULD have made major changes (having it happen in NYC, for example) and still made an interesting movie adaptation. As I pointed out, movie adaptations are by their nature their own things--they're simply not movie versions of the books, they're movies INSPIRED by a reading of the book, so to speak. But when the woman shows up, I was bored stiff, and nothing that happened after that changed that.

My point in bringing this up is that I simply don't get "disappointed" because I have never and will never see a film adaptation that IS the book. At best, and there have been adaptations I liked better than the book, a movie is a variation on a theme by someone who's just good at reworking material for cinema that maybe SHOULD (or could) have been a movie to begin with.

So LOTR, in a sense, isn't really a book adaptation to me--it's like someone's personal fantasy of the books. And even if I loved them, I suspect I wouldn't be bugged by that. The book is the book.

But when the woman shows up, I was bored stiff, and nothing that happened after that changed that.

The movie was exceptionally good, compelling AND scary up until that point. It absolutely sank when she and the boy came into the story. It was like they knew precisely what they were doing for the first half/two-thirds but then they got to that point where they didn't know how to end it, or even how to work the female lead into the story.

The alternate ending was also much more satisfying than the theatrical version as well.

On Broadway, a writer is considered one of the high priests of the process--you can't just change things. But in movies, the attitude is "We bought the book, it's ours, and we actually know better than the original writer--we have some objectivity."

I'm well aware that the writer is often regarded a disposable commodity in Hollywood (having worked in theater and film). I have no quarrel with the alterations necessitated by a screen adaptation (and sat thru The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe and the Harry Potter films with few misgivings). As far as LOTR, one of the problems with it, ironically, is Jackson's desire to retain as much as possible from the books -- including aspects and tangents which don't translate well to the screen.

Some great film moments for me (more to follow as I remember more):

LOTR: TTT- In what I like to call "The Exorcism" scene, the scene in which Gandalf the White delivers King Theoden from the hand of Saruman gives me chills every time I see it. I think it is wonderfully done and I think the spiritual dimension of the scene nails it.

UGETSU: Kind of in line with the above, the scene in which the ghosts (demons) hover over top of the man with all the writing on his body. As he shivers they basically tell him that he can't leave their company. I again get chills when I see it; the visuals speak volumes.

RAN: The scene where the castle in which the father is housed is attacked by his son and burns down: Takimitsu's music with the visual of the horrors of everything going on is brilliant in my opinion. The first time I saw RAN that sequence stuck with me and it's just a powerful moment in a film well worth watching.

REAR WINDOW: When James Stewart opens his eyes to see Grace Kelly over top of him...when she leans down to kiss him, I about died! Lol... she was so gorgeous. And I also like the scene where she turns on the three lamps and reveals her character's name. Gorgeous.

THE REMAINS OF THE DAY: The scene in which Miss Kenton discovers that Mr. Stevens is a romantic at heart in his private quarters, when she cathces him reading a romance book. That is one of the most romantic, repressive, painful scenes I've seen in a film and it really moves me (especially knowing how everything turns out).

RETURN OF THE JEDI: When Darth Vade tries to lure Luke out by telling him that if he doesn't join him, perhpas his sister will. Luke pummels on him, but it's the male chorus and Willaims' music that speak of tragedy in the midst of such aggression. I was so happy to get that music cue when that Star Wars Score box set came out.

ALIEN 3: The birth/death montage. Okay, so it's been done before (THE GODFATHER), but Fincher and Goldenthal did a great job in those sequences and it was something that stuck with me like glue after I saw it in the theater.

LATE SPRING: The final 5 minutes of the film are devastating. They are an echo of the opening of the film except now the house is empty. As Chisu Ryu peels his fruit he just stops....the shadows and light are perfect, the moment is intense, and the bow of his head says more than any words could have. Brilliant and moving.

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I'll say for now

mkaroly wrote: ALIEN 3: The birth/death montage. Okay, so it's been done before (THE GODFATHER), but Fincher and Goldenthal did a great job in those sequences and it was something that stuck with me like glue after I saw it in the theater.

Too bad that scene (one of the precious few highlights of that misguided mess of a movie) was ruined in the expanded cut, with a much less-visceral "ox" version.

On a sidenote, all the discussion we've had of ALIEN 3 of late finally reminded me of the one sequel that disposed of almost all of its principal cast in a ruthless manner just moments into it....

Yes, I'm talking about EWOKS - THE BATTLE FOR ENDOR.

And that one didn't even need David Fincher attached to it!

I wonder if John considers that one a refreshing change of pace simply because it bumped off the young girl's brother and parents in the first couple of minutes also

AndyDursin wrote:

But when the woman shows up, I was bored stiff, and nothing that happened after that changed that.

The movie was exceptionally good, compelling AND scary up until that point. It absolutely sank when she and the boy came into the story. It was like they knew precisely what they were doing for the first half/two-thirds but then they got to that point where they didn't know how to end it, or even how to work the female lead into the story.

The alternate ending was also much more satisfying than the theatrical version as well.

I was confused when I first watched it on DVD, because I wondered WHY they chose to go the other way with the ending. Neither is accurate to the book, but the theatrical version retained the slightly-less-Hollywood version...and it wasn't as satisfying. At least the deleted ending explained more.

I found the CGI really poor, btw--I'm not usually a FX snob, but they were SO bad here. Real people in makeup would have been a lot scarier.

I just realizes that this is another "then the wheels came off" movie!

AndyDursin wrote:On a sidenote, all the discussion we've had of ALIEN 3 of late finally reminded me of the one sequel that disposed of almost all of its principal cast in a ruthless manner just moments into it....

Yes, I'm talking about EWOKS - THE BATTLE FOR ENDOR.

And that one didn't even need David Fincher attached to it!

I wonder if John considers that one a refreshing change of pace simply because it bumped off the young girl's brother and parents in the first couple of minutes also

Do you seriously think I have seen this?

Explain it to me--they actually croak characters in this? I thought it was some kiddie thing made for TV.

mkaroly wrote:RAN: The scene where the castle in which the father is housed is attacked by his son and burns down: Takimitsu's music with the visual of the horrors of everything going on is brilliant in my opinion. The first time I saw RAN that sequence stuck with me and it's just a powerful moment in a film well worth watching.

Agreed! One of the best sequences in movie history. Of course that movie is filled with great moments -- tho I have to say the most satisfying (if disturbing) moment of that movie comes when Lady Kaede gets her comeuppance.

THE REMAINS OF THE DAY: The scene in which Miss Kenton discovers that Mr. Stevens is a romantic at heart in his private quarters, when she cathces him reading a romance book. That is one of the most romantic, repressive, painful scenes I've seen in a film and it really moves me (especially knowing how everything turns out).

That was a great scene, but the one which always pummels me in the gut is at the end, when Miss Kenton begins to sob as the bus takes her away from Mr. Stevens forever (and he can't admit to her how he feels).

To these I would add:

LAWRENCE OF ARABIA: the entire "rescue of Gasim" sequence, which is arguably the best sequence in movie history.

BEN-HUR: When Judah returns from his imprisonment and confronts Messala.

SPARTACUS: When the slaves lay waste to the Roman camp, and Spartacus breaks Glabrus' baton in half.

HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE: When Harry first enters Diagon Alley -- that moment was the biggest thrill I had gotten watching a movie in ten years.

And just to prove I'm not only about epics...

CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS: When Judah visits his parents' old house, and relives his family's arguments about right and wrong, and then enters into conversation with the figures from his memory.

REMAINS OF THE DAY is one of the huge disappointments for me, because 99% of the book is buildup to the big realization at the end...and the movie COMPLETELY botches it!

See, here's the thing. When you see the movie, the end is basically, the character realizes he's wasted his life, and then he goes back to work because it's all he knows, and isn't it tragic, he looks out the window at the little bird, and boohoo...

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The GREAT thing about the ending in the book is that you're reading along, wondering "OK, this is fine, but why all the love for this?" And his realization of the ruin, the utter WASTE of his life stabs you in the gut...and then, he PULLS BACK. He starts rationalizing it, "realizes" he was wrong to think that, and his life is actually just fine, and he's going to go back and trap himself once again... I was sitting there reading the book saying "NO!" out loud.

The book is just an amazing tightrope walk, because it all depends on, basically, two or three paragraphs working. And it succeeds spectacularly. And the movie missed the boat and turned it into a story about a sad guy who misses out on life; the book is a TRAGEDY because it reveals that that's how this guy HAS to be because he's completely self-delusional (which is what he had to be to work for a Nazi sympathizer).

Paul MacLean wrote:CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS: When Judah visits his parents' old house, and relives his family's arguments about right and wrong, and then enters into conversation with the figures from his memory.

That's a good one! Actually, that is my all-time favorite Woody Allen film. I have all his stuff, have seen all his movies several times, yet that one is the one that balances comedy and drama perfectly (IMO). Both MATCH POINT and CASSANDRA'S DREAM in a way reflect CAM, but are poor reflections. I also like the scene in that film where Judah has a battle with his conscience (Rabbi Ben).

JSWalsh wrote:

AndyDursin wrote:On a sidenote, all the discussion we've had of ALIEN 3 of late finally reminded me of the one sequel that disposed of almost all of its principal cast in a ruthless manner just moments into it....

Yes, I'm talking about EWOKS - THE BATTLE FOR ENDOR.

And that one didn't even need David Fincher attached to it!

I wonder if John considers that one a refreshing change of pace simply because it bumped off the young girl's brother and parents in the first couple of minutes also

Do you seriously think I have seen this?

Explain it to me--they actually croak characters in this? I thought it was some kiddie thing made for TV.

LOL, I figured you hadn't seen it. But yes, the father and mother and brother of the family in the first EWOK ADVENTURE are all killed in the opening minutes of the sequel, leaving their little girl an orphan. Good thing for her Wilford Brimley is around or else she'd be looking at saying "nub nub" for the rest of her life.

JSWalsh wrote:REMAINS OF THE DAY is one of the huge disappointments for me, because 99% of the book is buildup to the big realization at the end...and the movie COMPLETELY botches it!

Well, as you know, when adapting a book to the screen...