"Tech" Thread: Blu Ray, HD-DVD, Video Games, HDTV

[AndyDursin]

OK WAIT...I'm wrong...this isn't a new standard per se, just a way of delivering the signal that's better than what we have?

If so I'm all for it

[Eric W.]

OK WAIT...I'm wrong...this isn't a new standard per se, just a way of delivering the signal that's better than what we have?

If so I'm all for it

When, and if, that stuff ever makes the street...wanna take a guess at what that kind of thing will cost?

[AndyDursin]

OK WAIT...I'm wrong...this isn't a new standard per se, just a way of delivering the signal that's better than what we have?

If so I'm all for it

When, and if, that stuff ever makes the street...wanna take a guess at what that kind of thing will cost?

Yeah no kidding. Most people don't even have an HDTV yet, it's gonna be a tough sell! lol.

[Eric W.]

OK WAIT...I'm wrong...this isn't a new standard per se, just a way of delivering the signal that's better than what we have?

If so I'm all for it

When, and if, that stuff ever makes the street...wanna take a guess at what that kind of thing will cost?

Yeah no kidding. Most people don't even have an HDTV yet, it's gonna be a tough sell! lol.

All you have to do is put football in HD on those sets and it sells itself.

[AndyDursin]

Speaking of selling units, I just received Sony's Blu Ray discs from this week and next, AND Universal's HD-DVDs from this week and next. All the Universal discs are now VC-1 encodes (like their last batch), and THE FRIGHTENERS even has the complete 4-hour laser documentary on it.

I'd better get off this board and back to work!!! lol.

[Eric W.]

http://www.dailytech.com/Article.aspx?newsid=7483

Twice in the same day:

Welcome to Star Trek!

[AndyDursin]

LOL that's what I thought when I saw it.

[AndyDursin]

Definitely a good job by Toshiba and HD-DVD this week: Amazon sold out of the A2, hitting #1 for ALL electronics (not just DVD players), it made the front page at Yahoo, front page at Slick Deals, and Harry Knowles gave it his ringing endorsement (for whatever that's worth, lol) at AICN.

As I've said, it's good for the consumer when the price goes down. The A2 is a solid product and if anything this moved a lot of standalone units, increasing the marketplace for HD-DVD software.

We'll see how these new player sales translate to software sales later this year when the numbers come out, but if there was any doubt which format Walmart would want to endorse for low-cost players, I can tell you as I have from the very beginning HD-DVD has the decided edge in that department. This little promotional experiment has absolutely confirmed that in my mind.

When there's an appetite for a product, companies will start to look and listen. And this again confirms my theory from the very beginning that price is going to go a VERY long way in determining who wins "the format war," regardless of the amount of spin Sony tried pushing about why Blu Ray was "better" and why it justified its inherent expense.

Both of these formats are great, I enjoy my Blu Ray discs as much as anyone, but one format costs a lot less than the other. That's been my POV from the beginning of this, and I think it's just as valid now, possibly more than ever after seeing this in action -- especially if it translates to software bumps later on (and right now it's safe to say neither format is doing much of anything, which is another reason why this was good for awareness of HD-DVD and these formats in general).

Price drops lift HD DVD player sales
Amazon sells Toshiba HD-A2 model as low as $238 over Memorial Day weekend

By Jennifer Netherby -- Video Business, 5/29/2007

MAY 29 | Toshiba’s recent price drop on its HD DVD players and aggressive retailer pricing over the holiday weekend have driven up sales as much as tenfold at some retailers.

Since Toshiba began offering a $100 instant rebate on HD DVD players, sales have grown between fivefold and tenfold, depending on the retailer, said Jodi Sally, VP of marketing for Toshiba America Consumer Products.

“We’re thrilled to see that consumers are, by far, choosing Toshiba’s HD DVD players as their source for high-definition,” Sally said.

On May 20, Toshiba began offering the rebate on select HD DVD player models, effectively slashing the price on the bottom line HD-A2 model to $299.

Amazon.com cut the price even further, to as low as $238 over Memorial Day weekend. The lower price shot up the player to be the top-selling DVD player on the site, a spot previously held by the Oppo up-converting DVD player, which sells for $229.

The HD-A2 player price was back up to $299 on Tuesday on Amazon and listed as out of stock. Still it remained the top-selling DVD player and ranked No. 7 in sales in the electronics category.

An Amazon.com spokesman didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment about the sales.

Other retailers were selling the player for $299 on Tuesday, but comments on the AVS Forum reported seeing deals over the weekend from retailer Electronics Expo, which also sells players on Amazon.com.

[Eric W.]

Definitely a good job by Toshiba and HD-DVD this week: Amazon sold out of the A2, hitting #1 for ALL electronics (not just DVD players), it made the front page at Yahoo, front page at Slick Deals, and Harry Knowles gave it his ringing endorsement (for whatever that's worth, lol) at AICN.

Now I KNOW Blu-Ray will win for sure.

As I've said, it's good for the consumer when the price goes down. The A2 is a solid product and if anything this moved a lot of standalone units, increasing the marketplace for HD-DVD software.

We'll see how these new player sales translate to software sales later this year when the numbers come out, but if there was any doubt which format Walmart would want to endorse for low-cost players, I can tell you as I have from the very beginning HD-DVD has the decided edge in that department. This little promotional experiment has absolutely confirmed that in my mind.

When there's an appetite for a product, companies will start to look and listen. And this again confirms my theory from the very beginning that price is going to go a VERY long way in determining who wins "the format war," regardless of the amount of spin Sony tried pushing about why Blu Ray was "better" and why it justified its inherent expense.

Both of these formats are great, I enjoy my Blu Ray discs as much as anyone, but one format costs a lot less than the other. That's been my POV from the beginning of this, and I think it's just as valid now, possibly more than ever after seeing this in action -- especially if it translates to software bumps later on (and right now it's safe to say neither format is doing much of anything, which is another reason why this was good for awareness of HD-DVD and these formats in general).

<snip>

^^ These can be (and obviously are) good things short term at least, but in the end, you've got to have plenty of compelling content to back it up or it really doesn't matter if you give the hardware away or not.

Like you've harped on a million times...neither formats' sales figures are anything to do cartwheels over when you look at the big picture. Not even close.

I think the ballgame really comes down to this holiday season, across the boards. One of these formats is either going to put themselves over the top and essentially finish it and the other one hopefully will die off.

[AndyDursin]

These can be (and obviously are) good things short term at least, but in the end, you've got to have plenty of compelling content to back it up or it really doesn't matter if you give the hardware away or not.

I totally agree, which is why I think it's simply unfathomable why Fox hasn't done very much to support Blu Ray. If you look at it, they've released really only a smattering of titles, most of which have looked great, but then they have basically no content on them. I mean, who wants to pay $30 (the retail is $40!) for ROCKY in HD when the only extra is a trailer. Of all the studios playing this game their titles have really surprised me the most as being lacking -- if they were doing a great job I think it would be helping Blu Ray big-time, but they haven't, not even with the titles they have out there (HOOSIERS was a big disappointment as well). Lionsgate is another Blu Ray exclusive studio that really has limped forward with pretty mediocre titles that I've seen; of recent discs I've watched, DIRTY DANCING does not look good at all in HD.

HD-DVD did what it had to: stayed afloat with virtually no programming for several months, and now they've increased advertising (saw spots with the SOPRANOS guy last night on TV), getting the word out, and being active about promoting the players with rebates and sales -- plus more content is coming. Universal is doing an excellent job ramping up the catalog titles plus TV exclusives like HEROES and BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, which are going to do well. Between them, the few Warner exclusives for the time being (MATRIX, BATMAN), the other Warner & Paramount tiles, etc., I think it's shaping up nicely for them.

Blu Ray really needs some more "A list" exclusives because I think they are missing the golden opportunity in the here and now with consumers looking at HD-DVD's sales and price point as a better, lower cost alternative, and acting as such. It's like how they priced the PS3, the longer they wait for BD-J and whatever else they're doing, they're reducing whatever lead they have in the marketplace. Of course it may all be relatively small numbers, but the longer HD-DVD stays "alive" the worse it's going to be for them.

Plus, the best titles I've seen in terms of an overall package are usually Warner titles, so they're not format specific (though MATRIX and BATMAN BEGINS remain HD-DVD only for the moment).

But we're not really going to know the ramficiations of the player sales for a few months time, so it's going to be interesting to see what happens. The more units Toshiba is able to sell, the bigger pool of people with dedicated movie players there will be, who you know are going to buy movies. That coveted "attach rate" would also stand if people bought standalone Blu Ray players, but their price compared to HD-DVD really does not make them a viable option for most consumers.

By comparison, the PS3's attach rate is going to lag because not everyone is going to buy a movie with it, hence the sales numbers of CASINO ROYALE, which show PS3 owners will buy a "big ticket" title but aren't going to gobble up movies the way someone with a dedicated player is going to.

People may hate "the format war" but we'd have never seen prices like this if only one format was winning -- and that is not a bad thing.

[Eric W.]

I totally agree, which is why I think it's simply unfathomable why Fox hasn't done very much to support Blu Ray. If you look at it, they've released really only a smattering of titles, most of which have looked great, but then they have basically no content on them. I mean, who wants to pay $30 (the retail is $40!) for ROCKY in HD when the only extra is a trailer. Of all the studios playing this game their titles have really surprised me the most as being lacking -- if they were doing a great job I think it would be helping Blu Ray big-time, but they haven't, not even with the titles they have out there (HOOSIERS was a big disappointment as well). Lionsgate is another Blu Ray exclusive studio that really has limped forward with pretty mediocre titles that I've seen; of recent discs I've watched, DIRTY DANCING does not look good at all in HD.

Yup. Supposedly these studios are waiting to be able to include BD-Java, BD+, and some of those other "advanced features" so they can optimize for the format.

The talk is that they're basically saving their guns for the approximate holiday season.

On the other hand, you can look at what Disney has done thus far...that's how ya do it right! Their discs have just been fantastic all the way around!

HD-DVD did what it had to: stayed afloat with virtually no programming for several months, and now they've increased advertising (saw spots with the SOPRANOS guy last night on TV), getting the word out, and being active about promoting the players with rebates and sales -- plus more content is coming. Universal is doing an excellent job ramping up the catalog titles plus TV exclusives like HEROES and BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, which are going to do well. Between them, the few Warner exclusives for the time being (MATRIX, BATMAN), the other Warner & Paramount tiles, etc., I think it's shaping up nicely for them.

Universal can't hold up HD-DVD by itself.

Warner...they're basically an HD-DVD supporter that just happens to port some stuff to Blu-Ray.

Paramount has played it pretty fair down the middle.

Blu Ray really needs some more "A list" exclusives because I think they are missing the golden opportunity in the here and now with consumers looking at HD-DVD's sales and price point as a better, lower cost alternative, and acting as such.

Not yet.

Last I checked BD was still outselling HD-DVD on a whole by at least a 2:1 margin, but these things can change for the reasons you're citing.

We're back to the point again of: NEITHER format has really tried that hard to kick ass and get the job done and finish this thing outright.

It's like how they priced the PS3, the longer they wait for BD-J and whatever else they're doing, they're reducing whatever lead they have in the marketplace. Of course it may all be relatively small numbers, but the longer HD-DVD stays "alive" the worse it's going to be for them.

Plus, the best titles I've seen in terms of an overall package are usually Warner titles, so they're not format specific (though MATRIX and BATMAN BEGINS remain HD-DVD only for the moment).

Right.

But we're not really going to know the ramficiations of the player sales for a few months time, so it's going to be interesting to see what happens. The more units Toshiba is able to sell, the bigger pool of people with dedicated movie players there will be, who you know are going to buy movies. That coveted "attach rate" would also stand if people bought standalone Blu Ray players, but their price compared to HD-DVD really does not make them a viable option for most consumers.

The attach rate talk is the kind of stuff the MS guys post at AVS.

At the end of the day, content is king. That's where it's going to happen.

By comparison, the PS3's attach rate is going to lag because not everyone is going to buy a movie with it, hence the sales numbers of CASINO ROYALE, which show PS3 owners will buy a "big ticket" title but aren't going to gobble up movies the way someone with a dedicated player is going to.

I've seen you say this before and I disagreed with it and I had some link to back myself up. Can't find it now. Somewhere earlier in this thread...


Obviously it's a given that big titles are going to sell and draw attention.

Big titles and exclusives will make it or break it all in the end. Content is king.

People may hate "the format war" but we'd have never seen prices like this if only one format was winning -- and that is not a bad thing.

Be honest, though, Andy, and step back and be objective for a moment:

Doesn't the super low costs of the Toshiba players combined with 5-7 or so HD-DVD disc giveaways look like a firesale to you?

It certainly does to me and, yes, I'd say the same thing if I saw it happening on the BD side.

Yes, the prices look great. Yes, the spike on Amazon sales and what not looks great, but to me? That looks like a firsale to me all the way.

There's no way Toshiba can keep burnin' it like that long term. They have shareholders to answer to like anyone else.

YMMV



EDIT ADD:

http://www.reuters.com/article/industry ... 1920070531

^^ Here's an example of content is king. Third paragraph or so down you see this:

"Lost: The Complete Third Season -- The Unexplored Experience" follows December 11 on DVD and Blu-ray Disc. The 23-episode, seven-disc set comes with a one-on-one with star Matthew Fox, a featurette on "The Others," a documentary chronicling 24 hours in production and a selection of never-before-seen flashbacks. Also included are behind-the-scenes looks at 10 episodes, audio commentaries,

And that takes me a step closer to enjoying this show in great HD without the damned commercial interruptions.

This is the kind of content these formats need to be putting out ASAP.

Disney/Buena Vista certainly have been doing right by BD!

[AndyDursin]

Be honest, though, Andy, and step back and be objective for a moment:

Doesn't the super low costs of the Toshiba players combined with 5-7 or so HD-DVD disc giveaways look like a firesale to you?

It certainly does to me and, yes, I'd say the same thing if I saw it happening on the BD side.

Yes, the prices look great. Yes, the spike on Amazon sales and what not looks great, but to me? That looks like a firsale to me all the way.

There's no way Toshiba can keep burnin' it like that long term. They have shareholders to answer to like anyone else.

Sorry but I do think I'm being objective here

As a consumer, I care about Toshiba's shareholders....for what reason? For $237 I can get high-def DVD and at the least a solid upconverting player. That's only a few pennies over what Oppo is charging for an upconverting player that doesn't play ANY HD at all. What risk is there as a consumer?

And they're not going to be keeping the retail that low: the promo is for a specified amount of time, that Amazon price was good for about 24 hours, and the rebate moves to the other machines next week (the XA2, which people love, and the A20, which I have and can highly recommend).

Secondly, I am curious why you keep using the term "firesale." We know there are more -- a LOT more -- standalone HD-DVD players in the marketplace than Blu Ray machines. We know neither format is really making great inroads, and we also know manufacturing costs ACROSS THE BOARD are lower -- a lot lower -- for HD-DVD players and discs.

Whatever margin Toshiba is losing on these still isn't near what Sony is losing on the PS3. I'd bet it's not even comparable. It's the same reason why there are persistent rumors of cheap Chinese HD-DVD players -- the costs are substantially less for HD-DVD so it is realistic. Why anyone thinks those players (when/if they materialize) are going to be Blu Ray machines is laughable when we know the inherent expense of the format.
It's going to be a long while before we see "cheap Blu Ray players". The PS3 might drop $100 but even then you are still talking about a $500 unit.

It's about costs. Blu Ray can't do a promo like this, but the inherently more inexpensive costs of HD-DVD make it possible.

Along those lines: you do still really, honestly feel that Blu Ray is a superior format? And for what reason? If you want to tell me it's only because Panasonic and Samsung and Sony are making their machines, I think the XA2, A2 and A20 pretty much show how reliable these products are.

Again, I don't understand why it is better for anyone other than Sony fanboys and PS3 owners as to how Blu Ray "winning" is going to benefit anyone (other than those camps) when there is a product in the marketplace that is just as good in terms of performance and it DOESN'T COST AS MUCH to produce or buy.

It's simple logic to me. But if you feel Blu Ray discs look or sound or have more content than HD-DVD discs in general, then I just cannot agree.

[Eric W.]

In terms of discs, I haven't seen any inherent advantage to Blu Ray over HD-DVD. Have you?

Exclusive content.

[AndyDursin]

On the other hand, you can look at what Disney has done thus far...that's how ya do it right! Smile Their discs have just been fantastic all the way around!

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. The PIRATES discs are indeed fantastic, but how many of their titles had dropped special features in comparison with their SD counterparts? Looks like things are changing now, but it was not that way with most of the discs they brought out up until a few weeks ago.

[AndyDursin]

In terms of discs, I haven't seen any inherent advantage to Blu Ray over HD-DVD. Have you?

Exclusive content.

So technically, visually and otherwise, you at least concede that there is no difference in terms of picture quality and sound between these formats?

If that's the case, again, why support the format that costs X3 as much to the consumer to purchase?

If it's only because of studio support, that can easily change once companies see if there's been a bump in player support and movement. I remember a time when Fox and Disney had no intentions of releasing DVDs but rather DIVX discs. Once they saw where consumers were heading they changed their tune. Who's to say that's not going to change here also?