I wrote that I didn't hear the whole score -- I just didn't like what I DID hear.

And I don't think I need to "give him a break," when the music sounds 100% like I thought it would. My problem with Giacchino is it's all the same -- at least whenever he's not intentionally cribbing the styles of John Williams or John Barry. This music could have been written for LOST, it's string-heavy, slow, downbeat, like a group of chords "searching for a theme"...check that, it's EXACTLY like his music for LOST! Or the end of MISSION IMPOSSIBLE 3 or...you get my drift.

Now, I'm sure the entire score isn't like that (I hope not), but Giacchino on "auto pilot" (to use your term) is really the last thing I would want to hear with a project like STAR TREK. Hearing just those sections of the score have really soured me, because it's exactly what I expected it would sound like. Somehow I doubt the rest of it is going to be a stark 180 from that, and if that is his "theme," I'm sorry but it once again speaks to how much film music has regressed in the last 10-15 years.

As far as Goldsmith goes, I agree with you on NEMESIS -- but at least consider he wasn't in good health. I disagree on INSURRECTION, which is quite nice and has a lovely theme, and has grown on me over the years. It's not on the level of TMP or THE FINAL FRONTIER, but it's certainly a sturdy effort.

The reality, once again, is that we have gone from the days of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith scoring these movies to the likes of John Ottman and Michael Giacchino.

The art form is not what it was.

AndyDursin wrote:I don't think I need to "give him a break," when the music sounds 100% like I thought it would. My problem with Giacchino is it's all the same -- at least whenever he's not intentionally cribbing the styles of John Williams or John Barry. This music could have been written for LOST, it's string-heavy, slow, downbeat, like a group of chords "searching for a theme"...check that, it's EXACTLY like his music for LOST!

Now, I'm sure the entire score isn't like that (I hope not), but Giacchino on "auto pilot" is really the last thing I would want to hear with a project like STAR TREK. Hearing just those sections of the score have really soured me, because it's exactly what I expected it would sound like. Somehow I doubt the rest of it is going to be a stark 180 from that, and if that is his "theme," I'm sorry but it once again speaks to how much film music has regressed in the last 10-15 years.

As far as Goldsmith goes, I agree with you on NEMESIS -- but at least consider he wasn't in good health. I disagree on INSURRECTION, which is quite nice and has a lovely theme, and has grown on me over the years. It's not on the level of TMP or THE FINAL FRONTIER, but it's certainly a sturdy effort.

The reality, once again, is that we have gone from the days of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith scoring these movies to the likes of John Ottman and Michael Giacchino.

The art form is not what it was. Sadly, but absolutely true.

I agree with all of this.

Your last statement about the art form not being what it was: Honestly? Anyone that says or thinks otherwise just doesn't know what they're talking about and deserves to be ignored because they have no credibility.



To be fair, I have not passed "final judgement" on MG's score for this new Trek since obviously none of us have heard it.

My expectations going into it simply have been low to begin with and that snippet just reinforces that.

That snippet reinforces exactly what I was afraid of from MG going into this thing: It suggests to me that it's highly likely that this score is going to be "Lost" in Space, if you'll pardon the obvious pun. The odds certainly favor that likelihood. It's the exact opposite of the kind of score a Star Trek film needs.

Trek needs something with warm, expressive, broad themes, exciting, and FUN. Wide open. "Balls to the wall" to use an old FSM expression from back in the day...a day that's lone gone sadly.

I never liked Star Trek VI's score from Eidelman except for about two passages. What's strange is: Eidelman is a heck of underrated and overlooked talent who put out a more Trek like score for that miserable Columbus film instead. That's a beautiful score!

In general: When you can't and don't "cut loose" on a wide open science fiction film like this then frankly, it just underscores (pardon another pun) something that's terribly wrong as a whole in the industry today.

Once upon a time, a movie like this meant a guaranteed blind purchase of the score regardless of who was doing it. You just KNEW that any big time science fiction or fantasy movie was going to yield you a hell of a good score.

It's a truly sad sign of how far things have fallen when I'm looking at a good possibility of me NOT buying a Star Trek Movie score. That's pathetic. Even 10 years ago if you'd told me that I wouldn't have believed you.


All that being said: I WANT to like this movie and I WANT to like the score as well, so we'll see.




If anyone remembers: I used to be as big of an MG champion around here as you were going to find anywhere but I realize now it's like Andy said:

MG does his best work when he's aping other composers, whether it be John Williams for the Medal of Honor and Secrets of Normandy type videogames or John Barry on scores like The Incredibles.

Every MG score that I've liked was when he was aping someone way better than he is.

For all the hate I used to see against Joel McNeely, which I never fully understood, McNeely has got nothing on MG.

McNeely is WAY more talented when it comes to original work. I'd have loved to have seen JM cut loose on something like this. Listen to his Shadows of the Empire score and Young Indiana Jones scores and get back to me.

It's not even close.




As for MG: Scores like MOH and the Incredibles are zero originality but at least those scores are good fun in and of themselves and way better than anything MG has done "on his own" whether it be TV music from Alias, Lost, Fringe, or his throwaway score on the Mission Impossible III film.

MG aping a great composer > MG doing his own thing by leagues.


Basically I expect going into it that this Star Trek score from MG will be a mix of Lost and MI:III which means it will be easily forgettable and something I don't spend $15 on.

McNeely took an awful lot of flack for being a "williams clone" but I think he's a far more talented composer than Giacchino. I still can't get over how people raved about his score for THE INCREDIBLES when all he was doing was ripping off John Barry (to the point where I feel it was disgusting that Pixar didn't hire Barry, but instead hired Giacchino to write a score just like Barry).

I liked Giacchino's MEDAL OF HONOR/SECRET WEAPONS scores because he did a good job channeling John Williams, and I think we thought he was going to be a phenomenal composer when he was left to his own devices and not just mimicking the work of others.

That hasn't been the case. There's nothing wrong with some of his music but his scores on LOST manage to be effective and yet infruriating at the same time, showing a basic formula that he's brought to a lot of his other work. This section of the STAR TREK score would work on any episode of LOST, and that's what the problem is.

The days of actual, honest to goodness THEMES are over. I listened and was attracted to film music because of composers like Williams, Goldsmith, etc. If films made 20 years ago had the music of people like Giacchino, Ottman, etc., I would never have any interest in it. I think that speaks for a lot of people at FSM -- not the hard-core score junkies who will buy anything and everything that comes out (almost for the sake of doing so, and not because they really LIKE any of it), but for a lot of people like you and me.

Also, I guarantee you FSM never would have been founded if the art form then is what it is now.

AndyDursin wrote:McNeely took an awful lot of flack for being a "williams clone" but I think he's a far more talented composer than Giacchino.
I liked Giacchino's MEDAL OF HONOR/SECRET WEAPONS scores because he did a good job channeling John Williams, and I think we thought he was going to be a phenomenal composer when he was left to his own devices and not just mimicking the work of others.

I too discovered his music through the MOH scores and thought he might be a great composer. I don't know too much of his other material. Lost seems to be mentioned quite a bit, but it's a series I have never followed.
Didn't he write music for Fringe, or was that just the pilot episode?

MG has done most of Fringe's music thus far.

AndyDursin wrote:McNeely took an awful lot of flack for being a "williams clone" but I think he's a far more talented composer than Giacchino.

I know it'll never happen but I feel McNeely is overdue for an outright mass apology of sorts. It really was some embarassing and borderline witch hunt stuff that was totally unfair and ugly and personal at times.

I still can't get over how people raved about his score for THE INCREDIBLES when all he was doing was ripping off John Barry (to the point where I feel it was disgusting that Pixar didn't hire Barry, but instead hired Giacchino to write a score just like Barry).

You're right.

The only thing I can say for something like that is: Those people really didn't know any better. They didn't know who John Barry was and/or they'd never heard any of his scores from an era that sounded like that.

There's any number of reasons for that range across the spectrum from being a real young person from whom this stuff would be way before their time to far more unflattering conclusions.

I liked Giacchino's MEDAL OF HONOR/SECRET WEAPONS scores because he did a good job channeling John Williams, and I think we thought he was going to be a phenomenal composer when he was left to his own devices and not just mimicking the work of others.

That's what I thought, too, especially when I read that Spielberg kind of discovered MG.

I thought that he was wetting his chops on these games and by the time he "earned his stripes" and busted out on his own we'd get a new fresh voice.

I was wrong.

That hasn't been the case. There's nothing wrong with some of his music but his scores on LOST manage to be effective and yet infruriating at the same time, showing a basic formula that he's brought to a lot of his other work. This section of the STAR TREK score would work on any episode of LOST, and that's what the problem is.

Correct. A lot of what he does is very effective. His music for Alias and Lost works for those shows.

The days of actual, honest to goodness THEMES are over. I listened and was attracted to film music because of composers like Williams, Goldsmith, etc. If films made 20 years ago had the music of people like Giacchino, Ottman, etc., I would never have any interest in it. I think that speaks for a lot of people at FSM -- not the hard-core score junkies who will buy anything and everything that comes out (almost for the sake of doing so, and not because they really LIKE any of it), but for a lot of people like you and me.

Correct again, although you get an occasional stray like a Tale of Desperaux or even a Benjamin Button. William Ross is someone to keep an eye on and has been for a while and Desplat is someone that I've been watching for about two years now. Desplat is close to jumping to that next level IMO.

I'd like to see Desplat start to get some different kinds of scoring assignments. Heck, maybe he would have done something interesting with Trek!

Horner, Silvestri, JNH, Arnold, and yes Zimmer when he feels like it...these guys can put out something good when they feel like it.

Elfman? I want to see what he does on this Terminator film. He's another one that's let me down over time and we've discussed that many times. We all know these are really good composers but they're just not cranking it like they once did.

Williams? I think he's pretty much worn out and I say that with all due respect.

John Powell. I have a fair amount of his scores. I like his music, I like what he does but he hasn't fully ascended to the "A list" yet in my mind. He could if he wanted to. I think he's a good composer, all told.



Some of the newer folks:

Brian Tyler...this is a guy that frustrates me because you listen to something like this Dragonball score he just did or his Children of Dune score and you hear the beginnings of some really good ideas that sound good.

You listen and you're waiting for him to take that and evolve it and do something with that inital good idea...and you keep waiting and you keep waiting. It never takes off. That's my biggest complaint with a lot of these newer guys.

I think Brian Tyler has some real potential but I'm waiting for him and a few others like him out there to finally turn a corner. Crack through that creative ceiling.



You're not going to come up with some great score for the latest slasher film or rated R toilet humor sex comedy, either. That's part of the problem. The kinds of movies getting made in abundance simply aren't the kinds of things you throw good music at, to put it bluntly.

Then you get woefully miscast oppurtunities like those Narnia films where a great score would have put those things over the top but then you miscast Harry Gregson-Williams on it and well...you know how I feel about that. We had a whole thread about that topic.




There's some great musicians out there but a lot of them aren't even in film and TV. Look up Jesper Kyd and Jeremy Soule. They do incredible music and have for years...for videogames!

Also, I guarantee you FSM never would have been founded if the art form then is what it is now.

^^
Sad but true.

I can't disagree with anything you wrote.

I have been listening to EW Korngold lately and all I'll say is that film scoring nowadays is FAR removed from the Golden Age era. I know Korngol doesn't appeal to everyone but holy cow. Great and memorable themes, lyricism, cohesiveness, depth, and emotionally moving- all of that describes Korngold. None of that describes anything I've heard as of late...including the snippet from the new ST film.Blandness is here to stay!

mkaroly wrote:I have been listening to EW Korngold lately and all I'll say is that film scoring nowadays is FAR removed from the Golden Age era. I know Korngol doesn't appeal to everyone but holy cow. Great and memorable themes, lyricism, cohesiveness, depth, and emotionally moving- all of that describes Korngold. None of that describes anything I've heard as of late...including the snippet from the new ST film.Blandness is here to stay!

I love Korngold.

I'd encourage anyone who has never got out on a limb and taken a gamble: Do it and try a Korngold score that you see a lot of people talk about favorably.

I don't think you'll regret it.

4 different clips now up at Colosseum -- the heavy use of the Alexander Courage theme in the End Credits (more than any other composer has ever used it!) is just...weird.

http://www.colosseum.de/product_info.ph ... -Trek.html

AndyDursin wrote:4 different clips now up at Colosseum -- the heavy use of the Alexander Courage theme in the End Credits (more than any other composer has ever used it!) is just...weird.

http://www.colosseum.de/product_info.ph ... -Trek.html

I like what I heard from these brief segments better than the first segment you put up.

Nothing blew me away but I'm not hearing nonstop Lost minimalism per se, either. Track 5 had some real energy to it that I wish I could hear more of.

I hear some Medal of Honor hints in 9 and I actually don't mind the End Credits, either, although it is kind of funky.

I feel better about this batch of samples vs. the first sample you put up.

If Track 9 is any indicator, I'm hoping MG gives us more "Medal of Honor" in Space vs. "Lost" in Space and I'll be happy enough.

AndyDursin wrote:4 different clips now up at Colosseum -- the heavy use of the Alexander Courage theme in the End Credits (more than any other composer has ever used it!) is just...weird.

I have to be honest -- I grew up watching Star Trek, but in truth Alexander Courage's theme never did anything for me. I always found it to be little more than "easy listening" music. Jerry Goldsmith's Star Trek theme on the other hand is captivating, it also communicates everything Star Trek is about: in particular soaring optimism and heroism. To me, Goldsmith's the REAL Star Trek theme.

Paul MacLean wrote:

AndyDursin wrote:4 different clips now up at Colosseum -- the heavy use of the Alexander Courage theme in the End Credits (more than any other composer has ever used it!) is just...weird.

I have to be honest -- I grew up watching Star Trek, but in truth Alexander Courage's theme never did anything for me. I always found it to be little more than "easy listening" music. Jerry Goldsmith's Star Trek theme on the other hand is captivating, it also communicates everything Star Trek is about: in particular soaring optimism and heroism. To me, Goldsmith's the REAL Star Trek theme.

Agreed, Courage's theme is just totally "60s." I'm surprised Giacchino is using it in any kind of context outside of its opening notes, but then again, this score doesn't sound anything like the Goldsmith or Horner sorts of rousing orchestral scores I grew up on.

There's more energy as Eric mentioned in those clips but -- where's the theme? Where's the thematic approach in general? Someone on the FSM board (and they all seem to love what they've heard) said Giacchino's "string approach" is akin to John Barry's. Outside of that being the first time I've seen a comparison of Giacchino and Barry (outside of how much Giacchino was "influenced" by Barry on THE INCREDIBLES), Barry's trait was strong, distinguishable themes -- often melodic, sometimes romantic, and always memorable. Giacchino's is pensive, "wandering" chords with a motif often times of about three or four notes -- that's what he did on LOST and this score sounds about the same to me. If it works for some people, great, but it doesn't appeal to me as a listener. The lack of development of thematic material is a total turn-off.

AndyDursin wrote:
Agreed, Courage's theme is just totally "60s." I'm surprised Giacchino is using it in any kind of context outside of its opening notes, but then again, this score doesn't sound anything like the Goldsmith or Horner sorts of rousing orchestral scores I grew up on.

I agree with you and Paul and also confess: The 60's theme never did anything for me, either.

There's more energy as Eric mentioned in those clips but -- where's the theme? Where's the thematic approach in general?

You know it isn't going to be there.

It's going to be like so many other scores have been: You'll hear traces or maybe a hint of thematic material and then it just never gets built on or progressed.

Someone on the FSM board (and they all seem to love what they've heard) said Giacchino's "string approach" is akin to John Barry's.

Outside of that being the first time I've seen a comparison of Giacchino and Barry (outside of how much Giacchino was "influenced" by Barry on THE INCREDIBLES), Barry's trait was strong, distinguishable themes -- often melodic, sometimes romantic, and always memorable. Giacchino's is pensive, "wandering" chords with a motif often times of about three or four notes -- that's what he did on LOST and this score sounds about the same to me. If it works for some people, great, but it doesn't appeal to me as a listener. The lack of development of thematic material is a total turn-off.

We're back to what I wrote about those kinds of people in my rather long winded post on the previous page. Feel free to put those people anywhere in that spectrum I described as you see fit.

double post

OK, since it was me who made that comparison between Barry and Giacchino on the FSM, I guess I need to explain what I meant here as well.

I did not mean that their respective compositions for strings sound anything alike, but that, to my ears, when I hear Giacchino's writing for strings I can recognize it, in the same fashion that if you played just a few moments of a Barry score, I can recognize his string writing as well. This is important to me. And you guys are thinking far to horizontally when it comes to music and not vertically. Often it is the way the notes are stacked between the different string voices - violin, viola, cello, bass - the harmonic intervals, that make a composer's work distinct and that is something consistent in Giacchino's work.

Also, a hell of a lot can be done with three or four notes, I don't think expanding a melodic idea to five notes will suddenly make a composer "the genuine article". I happen to find those short motivic fragments can be more memorable than an 8-bar tune and someone named Goldsmith certainly got a ton of use out of such musical devices.

And this is all coming from an "old schooler". I don't follow Gregson-Williams, Ottman, Powell, Brian Tyler, Badelt, Bates or any of those new guys. When I buy and listen to film scores, it's Goldsmith, Herrmann, Barry, Jarre, Waxman, Bernstein, Williams, etc. I am seriously picky as hell when it comes to film composers, it takes a hell of a lot for me to find any of the new composers interesting and engaging, but it is seriously there with Giacchino.

Maybe it is because I watched every episode of "Alias" and every episode of "Lost" so far in its run and found his music the most exciting and memorable of anything currently on television. Giacchino has composed many cues for "Lost" in a challenging, dissonant idiom for a live orchestra of strings, percussion & trombones that's not been heard for decades on television. This is an amazing feat in today's filmed medium, more than what is allowed in the cinema.

And his music has a thematic appeal as well. He wrote memorable themes for each character on "Alias" - many of them more than 3-4 notes! His themes for Sloane, the prophecy and Sydney's mother (for solo cello) were long-form melodies, which stood out and something with which loyal viewers became very familiar. On "Lost", his twisted recurring theme for Ben, the soaring raft launch in Season One (which resurfaces for moments of hope for the survivors), Desmond & Penny's heartbreaking relationship and others are all long-form melodies, again each more than 3-4 notes and are highly memorable for even the casual fan (just watch footage from the concert in Hawaii, included on the Season 4 set or ask any of my friends who watch the show, they can hum these melodies). If you have not watched many episodes of either of these series, then you have no idea what I am talking about and therefore you cannot completely dismiss Giacchino and his work. It's like those critics who think all John Williams can write is music for Star Wars and Indy, but they've never listened to Seven Years in Tibet or Angela's Ashes.

Hopefully this explains my viewpoint a bit more clearly...

TomServo wrote: I did not mean that their respective compositions for strings sound anything alike, but that, to my ears, when I hear Giacchino's writing for strings I can recognize it, in the same fashion that if you played just a few moments of a Barry score, I can recognize his string writing as well.

This I understand and I'll even agree with you. I know all too well by now what MG's Lost-esque string writing sounds like so yes, it's easy to spot and identify.

This is important to me.

And you guys are thinking far to horizontally when it comes to music and not vertically.

Not sure what this means.

Often it is the way the notes are stacked between the different string voices - violin, viola, cello, bass - the harmonic intervals, that make a composer's work distinct and that is something consistent in Giacchino's work.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here because the only time his music is 'distinct' to me is when he's channeling and aping composers superior to him like Barry or Williams.

I know what you're saying and I said sometime back that The Incredibles score "sounded like something Barry might have done" and I think we all understand that and know what it means. I like the score. I just don't think there's a damned thing original about it and I halfway wonder if John Barry or someone on his behalf placed a few phone calls after he heard it.

Also, a hell of a lot can be done with three or four notes, I don't think expanding a melodic idea to five notes will suddenly make a composer "the genuine article". I happen to find those short motivic fragments can be more memorable than an 8-bar tune and someone named Goldsmith certainly got a ton of use out of such musical devices.

True, but Goldsmith and a few of these others are practically freakish in what they can do with very little. If you have say...45 seconds to score a scene...I can count on one hand how many composers can actually do something with that. Several of them are now deceased. You see where I'm going with this?

And this is all coming from an "old schooler". I don't follow Gregson-Williams, Ottman, Powell, Brian Tyler, Badelt, Bates or any of those new guys. When I buy and listen to film scores, it's Goldsmith, Herrmann, Barry, Jarre, Waxman, Bernstein, Williams, etc. I am seriously picky as hell when it comes to film composers, it takes a hell of a lot for me to find any of the new composers interesting and engaging, but it is seriously there with Giacchino.

I honestly haven't heard it except again, when he's aping superior composers in works like the Medal of Honor games, Secrets over Normandy, Mercenaries a little bit or the aforementioned Incredibles.

I even own his score to MI:III. I have the first CD of Lost they put out and I also have the first two Alias albums. I'm pretty well versed on MG at this point and like I wrote earlier: I was probably as big of an MG champ in the early goings as you could find. His MOH music really had me thinking he was going to be The Next Big Thing.


I feel I was mistaken...at least so far.

Maybe it is because I watched every episode of "Alias" and every episode of "Lost" so far in its run and found his music the most exciting and memorable of anything currently on television.

Well, that's another subject entirely. TV music has been a dead zone for years so it really doesn't take much to stand out.

I certainly think MG's work is VERY effective in whatever he's scoring. I'm not trying to trash the guy so please don't take me the wrong way here.

Giacchino has written in a challenging, avant garde, dissonant idiom on "Lost" for a live orchestra of strings, percussion & trombones that's not been heard for decades on television. This is an amazing feat in today's filmed medium, more than what is allowed in the cinema.

More often than not, I find this to be cover language.

To that end, yes, his music for Lost is VERY effective on the show for what it is. Same goes for Alias. Heck, same goes for probably most if not all of his scores.

And his music has a thematic appeal as well. He wrote memorable themes for each character on "Alias" - many of them more than 3-4 notes! His themes for Sloane, the prophecy and Sydney's mother (for solo cello) were long-form melodies, which stood out and something with which loyal viewers became very familiar.

I do remember some of those although not as well as you apparently.

On "Lost", his twisted recurring theme for Ben, the soaring raft launch in Season One (which resurfaces for moments of hope for the survivors), Desmond & Penny's heartbreaking relationship and others are all long-form melodies, again each more than 3-4 notes and are highly memorable for even the casual fan (just watch footage from the concert in Hawaii, included on the Season 4 set or ask any of my friends who watch the show, they can hum these melodies). If you have not watched many episodes of either of these series, then you have no idea what I am talking about and therefore you cannot completely dismiss Giacchino and his work.

I do know some of these themes you refer to.

I was a loyal Alias person from day one and same for Lost.

It's like those critics who think all John Williams can write is music for Star Wars and Indy, but they've never listened to Seven Years in Tibet or Angele's Ashes.

Hopefully this explains my viewpoint a bit more clearly...

Great post!